RE: Concealment Challenge January 29 at Heartland Outdoors

[Jefpainthorse]

we had about 2x the constestants last night... and ran about an hour and 15 over normal time.

Plus... I'd guess from the new shooters meeting... about 15 new shooters or so. I'd guess many of those have never been to an organized event (competion) so that adds a little time to a stage.

Mike... dont worry about the 5 guys in the back... I think at least one has a tape allergy or something....

 

[Pstmstr]

Something....

 

[Jefpainthorse]

Something....

Yea... I figured you figure him out....

Remember those "fugitive recovery agents" who couldnt figure out how to tape yet? They came a couple of times last Spring.

I shot an IDPA match a few years ago... several "uniformed" officers shot that match. Seems they were befuddeled by pasters and knocking down target stands. I did not mind getting beat by those guys...after all, my tax money taught them to shoot... I'd a been dissapointed if they shot worse.

 

[MoBoost]

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Was this your first action pistol match?

Yes

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I wish you had brought these concerns to my attention last night, as I was available, or sent me a PM. I will address your concerns here so you can understand the some of the dynamics of running a shooting match.

I prefer open discussion: as a new shooter I did not expect 1+ hour waits between 30 second stages.

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Ok, first you thank the organizers, then immediately insult them for not being organized?

I appreciate people that put in the effort ... I didn't mean this post as an insult - just constructive criticism.

No, that was 4 hours for FIVE stages, one of which was a two shot draw. Many people have no idea how fast they can draw and fire two shots on a close-in target; now they do. We did this about a year ago and they can compare their times to see if they improved.

If you're going to base your entertainment on a shooting time/per dollar basis, then maybe shooting USPSA or IDPA matches aren't for you. (or you can shoot slower and/or more rounds) I've shot National matches where my actual shooting time was 2-3 minutes, spread out over a couple days. Was I upset about that? Yes, I wish my shooting time had been less![/B]

Wait at the nationals makes sense - wait at biweekly range match ... not so much.

Have a sign-up ahead of time: tier one 6pm, tier two 8pm
10 people per squad
2 squads shoot at the same time: setup each stage, shoot, swap rooms, shoot, setup next stage, shoot, swap rooms, shoot. If 25 people can shoot a stage in 1 hour, surely 10 people can set it up and shoot it in 30 minutes; so the whole thing will be done in 2 hours. You don't need 20 guys going to paste up the targets - but it will surely keep 6-8 busy.

Repeat with tier 2.

I know that covers only 40 shooters. But if the sport is as popular as you say - have the match every week; surely $800 cash in after hours is incentive enough.

High attendance is not an excuse for poor organization.

Don't confuse patience and waste of time. Waiting for a slow shooter is not a problem - inability to break up a crowd into manageable groups is.

I guess if everyone else thinks it's perfect as it is - I'll just stfu and find something else to b!tch about .

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

couple of things...
1. we have had 18 people at a match and 50 at a match (last night was a record!), so having a two tier system won't work. also we have people drive as far as lawton to this match, we are not going to say, sorry just filled up go back home... along with the fact attendance would drop if you do that, because people don't want to shoot with 5 other people, so then they would stop coming.. we have roughly 8 matches that are "action" ran by 8 different people in the state and every single one does it the way it was last night.
2. there are two ways to approach a situation
a. we had a guy that wanted there to be some type of steel targets, but obviously can't have steel indoors. Instead of publicly complaining, he spoke to people in private, he made plastic "steel" targets, brought them to the match and made it better. That is much more productive and respectful and instead of complaining, he fixed the situation.
b. coming on a public forum, making arrogant comments with nothing to back them up with. i think you are underestimating how much effort certain people put into this match and to come on a forum AFTER 1 MATCH (which happen to an anomaly) and criticize is disrespectful. It is the same as me coming into your job and after one day sending out a mass email saying all the ways i feel like you could improve, you would be upset and rightful so. Dale Carnegie talks about this in his books as do other people, so this is not my opinion, but the opinion of experts everywhere that doing something like this is only self serving and not beneficial, because if you truly follow the golden rule, no way would you call other people out publicly.

but lastly lets just deal with facts
1. out of THOUSANDS of "action pistol" matches 98% (or more) are ran this way (i have never heard of one not ran this way), and if you combine match directors experience they have THOUSANDS of hours running matches
2. you have been to one match with 4 hours of experience, zero actually running a match
3. you believe that your zero hours of experience is not only more valid than everyone else running a match in the USA, but so valid that you called the director out publicly, who has shot matches for over 30 years, that started up this match from scratch, brought medals to the match, gave away holster for free as prizes (out of his own time and money), gave away over 350 in gift certificates, spends all week planning the matches and then changed them on the fly to make it more efficient last night, it is the only match in the state where you can shoot any gun you want and as a result numerous newcomers are introduced to a new sport.

look i am not trying to come off harsh, i am not even saying you are wrong, maybe you are right and i would encourage you to start a match up with that format and maybe it will take off. I am just saying publicly calling someone out (who you have no idea how much effort they put into the match) is not the approach that is appropriate. No way would i spend 4 hours at your job observing you and then call you out publicly, that is just not right.....

 

[David E]

Have a sign-up ahead of time: tier one 6pm, tier two 8pm
10 people per squad
2 squads shoot at the same time: setup each stage, shoot, swap rooms, shoot, setup next stage, shoot, swap rooms, shoot. If 25 people can shoot a stage in 1 hour, surely 10 people can set it up and shoot it in 30 minutes; so the whole thing will be done in 2 hours. You don't need 20 guys going to paste up the targets - but it will surely keep 6-8 busy.

For someone who just shot their very first action pistol match ever yesterday, you sure have a lot of ideas of how things "ought" to be done.

Doing it per your example is flawed. First of all, you don't know how many are coming to shoot until they are there, signing up. We've tried getting folks to sign up early for other matches and it just doesn't work out. We can have 25, 30 or 50 shooters. Doing it your way, if 25-30 people show up, we have one squad of 5-10 shooters. You forgot to mention what Tier One shooters do when they are done shooting. Do they leave? If so, then 5-10 shooters have to take down everything. If not, then they are still waiting around!!

Secondly, you don't take into account stage set-up time, not to mention complaints of how it was set up differently for one of the Tiers. Some stages require more set up time than others. Setting stages up TWICE per night isn't something I'm going to do.

High attendance is not an excuse for poor organization.

High attendance DOES indicate that we, in spite of our un-organized selves, are doing something right.

.... and find something else to b!tch about .

I believe you.

 

[Pstmstr]

I think open discussion would take place ftf with the match organizer and while your suggestions may have some merit, it would probably have more consideration if it wasn't after your first match. To tear down and reset each stage an extra time is a waste of time. Nor can you run a shooter, score, tape, and reset the stage in 3 minutes. I've been ROing for 3 years and can run a squad as fast as anyone, 5 min per shooter is getting it done quickly. That would be 50 min per stage, PLUS set up or about an hour per stage. Meanwhile, you have to mess with pre registration, who wants to shoot at 6, 8 etc. Who says they are coming, then not show up. The logistics of running a match are a bit more complicated than it may seem at first glance. Cleaning up the place after closing, running 5 stages in just over 4 hours on a 2 bay range with 50 shooters ain't bad in the shooting world. All of us would like more shooting and less waiting but we put up with it because we like to shoot. It's a little easier at Arcadia and places where you can have the stages preset. Even there some matches are close to 100 shooters. Patience is a virtue or so I'm told. Most Heartland matches are less than 40 shooters. We've been finished as early as 8:30. Just a tough night and not a good representation of normal.

 

[MoBoost]

For someone who just shot their very first action pistol match ever yesterday, you sure have a lot of ideas of how things "ought" to be done.

Does it burn?

Doing it per your example is flawed. First of all, you don't know how many are coming to shoot until they are there, signing up.

That's the whole purpose of "sign-up" - you do know how MANY people will show up and WHEN.

We've tried getting folks to sign up early for other matches and it just doesn't work out.

Works for SDA classes at H&H. Works for rifle matches .... are you saying action pistol shooters are incapable of putting their name next to a time and showing up at that time?

We can have 25, 30 or 50 shooters. Doing it your way, if 25-30 people show up, we have one squad of 5-10 shooters. You forgot to mention what Tier One shooters do when they are done shooting. Do they leave?

Yes, they leave.... you don't know how you scored till next day anyhow... right?

If so, then 5-10 shooters have to take down everything. If not, then they are still waiting around!!

Just like the first squad can put it up, the last squad can put it away.

Setting stages up TWICE per night isn't something I'm going to do.

Well that clearly shows your attitude towards "organizing" the event - it's so much easier just to sit around and count cash, isn't it ... the more the merrier.

High attendance DOES indicate that we, in spite of our un-organized selves, are doing something right.

100 billion sold ... oh wait that's McDonald's.

 

[David E]

Ok, I read the "advice" from someone that has 4 hours "experience" in action pistol matches.

I explained the situation patiently and clearly. You ignored the reasons I and others have listed as to what problems would arise doing it your way.

I did not insult you, yet you insult me and all the other shooters.

It is obvious that this match is not a good fit for you.

I wish you well in your other action shooting pursuits. I know they'll look forward to reading on a public forum all the things they are doing wrong from a first time shooter.

 

[Pstmstr]

Cool, only 49 shooters next time and 3 less minutes. .