Rifle n00b-lotsa questions...

[Larry Morgan]

I really like what I've read so far about the "Accutrigger"...It sounds like you get the same effect as a really expensive "trigger job" with the ability for your average person to easily be able to adjust the pull.

Basically, yes. It's designed to be easily user adjustable and personally I like mine quite a bit. They're a pretty nice factory trigger and the safety on them is kinda neat (although we all know what the REAL safety is). Mine came on the lightest setting from the factory, as I think they all do, and I never moved it.

I use a 1-piece EGW base on mine. They are pretty affordable. If nobody mentioned it yet, a 1 piece base is advantageous because it is more rigid than having a 2 piece base. It is a commonly held belief that a 1-piece also adds a small amount of rigidity to the action also, which makes some sense if you think about it.

 

[Seedy]

Ok folks, I really appreciate all the advice here.

"The day" is getting closer (we just filled out the final verification paperwork for the 1st time home buyers credit). After doing my homework, I think that for an accurate rig that is going to do what I want...I'm afraid I'm going to be over $1K

Looking at a Savage model with heavy barrel, accutrigger, SFWA "super sniper" scope, and some half decent mounting hardware is gonna put me out over a grand...

I've been talking to a buddy who's son was a Marine Sniper and listening to what he has to say about long range shooting and affordability. He's been pushing me towards other calibers and single shot/break barrel rigs...The kind of rig I can start a log book and really learn how to adjust for enviornmentals, etc...

I'm also looking at the cost of .308 Win. ammo and thinking about the "fun factor" too...

...also, after shooting the family M1 carbine (waaaaaay too much fun!) I've been starting to think about something smaller, lighter, cheap to shoot and fun (notice I didn't say "highly accurate" )...

...so...considering surplus ammo, and what I can get "on the cheap"...I'm starting to think about something that would just be "fun to shoot"...before anyone from the rimfire section jumps on and goes ".22"!!...I've already ruled that one out...I want a little more "thump" than that.... The next gun I buy will be a .22lr for the kid though (so suggestions on "junior" guns is welcome).

So...I was thinking....that a fun gun to shoot, under $800 would be a Kel-Tec SU-16c with a red dot or holographic sight/scope... Anybody have the Kel-Tec SU-16c?

Somebody please come tell me that I'm crazy, or that Kel-Tec's are crap...or something before I go buy that fun looking little gun!

 

[cvrx4]

You mentioned hunting. How much are you gonna do? It seems like most of the conversation is leaning towards hole punching. In all honesty a good hole punching gun is typically not a good hunting rig. A heavy barrel might get well, heavy in the woods. Paper punchers like nice big scopes with high power which can be a detriment when you have a 50 yard shot through some brush at a moving animal.

I would still lean toward the 308. It is a nice round for most hunting that you might get into with factory loadings. It is a great deer round, a good hog round, and is serviceable on Coyotes. It also has less recoil than 30-06. (might help keep from developing bad habits aka flinching.) I would rather shoot .308 all day than 30-06 but that is just me.I know a 30-06 can do all the same and a more than 308 not trying to start a caliber war at all the 30-06 is an awesome round.

I would suggest shootin some of both. I am sure there are members here that can help you with that. If you are leaning toward the savage you might give the tin star shooting range over in weatherford a holler he has really good prices on them. I think he also has package deals (with scopes).

 

[Seedy]

You mentioned hunting. How much are you gonna do? It seems like most of the conversation is leaning towards hole punching. In all honesty a good hole punching gun is typically not a good hunting rig.

Great point. In all reality...I will probably not do any hunting with it. Feral Hog hunting does sound like fun though...but I have no plans to do so...
Paper, pop cans and maybe the hypothetical post apocalyptic zombie skull
would be the primary targets.

 

[JCW355]

So...I was thinking....that a fun gun to shoot, under $800 would be a Kel-Tec SU-16c with a red dot or holographic sight/scope... Anybody have the Kel-Tec SU-16c?

Somebody please come tell me that I'm crazy, or that Kel-Tec's are crap...or something before I go buy that fun looking little gun!

They are not crap. I have the A model with B model sights on it. I've only put a couple hundred rounds thru mine with open sights and like it. It uses AR mags which are very common.

 

[Seedy]

They are not crap. I have the A model with B model sights on it. I've only put a couple hundred rounds thru mine with open sights and like it. It uses AR mags which are very common.

In regards to the SU-16 in general. With cost in mind...Would you recommend it over an AR or Ruger Mini 14?

I've read that there may be mounting issues with the rail on top not quite being to "spec" on the SU16...Have you tried mounting anything on it?

I've seen some aftermarket fore-grips that interest me...any suggestions on "personalization options" for it? It seems like a good option for someone not quite ready to spend the $$$ on an AR...

Can an AR REALLY be built for about $650 WITH decent parts? I really like the "black rifle" but don't want to have spent $800 and still want to drop another $500 on optics and fluff and buff...


...so many options

 

[cvrx4]

In regards to the SU-16 in general. With cost in mind...Would you recommend it over an AR or Ruger Mini 14?

I've read that there may be mounting issues with the rail on top not quite being to "spec" on the SU16...Have you tried mounting anything on it?

I've seen some aftermarket fore-grips that interest me...any suggestions on "personalization options" for it? It seems like a good option for someone not quite ready to spend the $$$ on an AR...

Can an AR REALLY be built for about $650 WITH decent parts? I really like the "black rifle" but don't want to have spent $800 and still want to drop another $500 on optics and fluff and buff...


...so many options

Depends on what you call decent parts. I think that 650 will get you an entry level AR but you would be surprised what that will get you. I know my AR is more accurate than I will EVER be. If you look around and take your time you can find the parts you need or contact 10.5Stang at MAS he can hook you up.

 

[ez bake]

Depends on what you call decent parts. I think that 650 will get you an entry level AR but you would be surprised what that will get you. I know my AR is more accurate than I will EVER be.

+1 - If you're building one and patient enough to wait and watch for deals, you can put together a top-notch AR for under $800 - I've put together 3 lately because I've got friends who just got into shooting and they all got seriously bad-ass KISS Carbines for around $700 - $790

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Package VS. Build: I've only mounted and sighted a cheap tasco scope on a dovetailed pellet gun before...so I really don't know how to properly mount and zero a "real" scope. This makes a bore sighted "package" deal very appealing to me. However, I'm not against learning, and If I can build something and get better results for less $$$ I'm all for it.

No, no, no, gawdsakes no. Mounting a scope and bore-sighting are quite simple, and the scopes that come with these packages, as well as the rings, are generally junk. The rig is only as strong as the weakest link, and you're setting yourself up for a weak link. Get moderate to high quality glass, and high quality rings, definitely. PM me for advice.

New VS Used: I'm open to buying someones "last years build"...but honestly am concerned I'm going to get taken advantage of being that I don't really know what to look for and what should and shouldn't be there when buying a used rifle...New would be great, but if I can get more gun for less money by going used (and can avoid getting ripped off or sold someone else's "problem gun") I will do it.

Used is fine, yes, and is a better deal usually; to avoid getting gouged, you're just gonna have to educate, educate, educate yourself by reading a lot, and/or, at the time you spot a potential purchase, inspect it, take notes, then say "I'll get back to you", then go research it before buying.

Scope and Mounts: This is all uncharted waters for me... This is where I really start getting confused... What size, power, reticle type etc will I need for getting out to (and eventually hopefully past) 300 yards? What issues of compatibility are there between rifles, mounts and scopes? I like the idea of the Nikon BDC reticle, but have read some crappy reviews on it...Is there a better option with a similar concept...or is Mil-dot the way to go?

Mil-dot, schmil-dot, BDC, Schmee-dee-cee. Get a good scope - AND rings/base scope - that's important. Gizmos are relatively unimportant. You can learn holdover just like our ancestors did. Unlike rifles, you CAN easily get a junk scope, so the research here is arguably even more important on the rifle. Nikons are great but their BDC is crap. If you must have a BDC, a regular one with hash marks, not circles, is preferred, but only actually helpful if matched to the chambering you are using.

Your action type of course, will be a turnbolt rifle. Maaaaybe a semi-auto like an AR15, but I wouldn't recommend it for a benchrest gun, and especially not on a limited budget. Turnbolt rifles represent the high-water mark of rifle value for your dollar, particularly for accuracy, but all-around as well. You want a quality turnbolt (CZ, Savage, Stevens, Marlin, Remington, Winchester, Howa/Vanguard, Tikka, Browning, Sako, Steyr, Kimber, Icon, Cooper - whatever the budget can afford - you said you're on a real budget, so I'd take a close close look at Savages, T/C Venture, and Howas; maybe CZs or Tikkas, for a little more). Honestly, you are NOT going to beat with any sized stick, the T/C Venture under $500 with 5R rifling an a sub-1MOA *guarantee*. Not a "certification" that THEY supposedly did it, but a "guarantee" that YOU will do it.

The weight & barrel profile of the rifle will depend upon how far you're going to be carrying it - you said target shooting, so no reason not to get a heavy-ish rifle with a heavy barrel profile, and a longish barrel length (24" or more in a centerfire, 20" or more in rimfire). UNLESS you are going to practice from field positions (standing, kneeling, prone, etc.), and/or actually eventually carry it into the field, in which case you want a lighter rifle (under 7.5 or 8 lbs before adding scope & sling).


Chambering - I recommend starting with a rimfire - either a .22 or a .17 HMR, or one of each. Or, if you must start with a centerfire, I probably will recommend the venerable .223 Rem . However, .243 Win would also be an excellent choice, come to think of it, as would 6mm Benchrest. The .204 Ruger is also a very strong target rifle chambering out to 300, so it's a contender, but more expensive to shoot. Edit: Now I see you said .308 or .30-06 - gawdsakes, NO! You want a lighter recoiling gun, not to mention cheaper to shoot. I'd go with a maximum of .243 for ranges out to 300 yards. It significantly outperforms the .308 in exterior ballistics at those ranges, and is much much easier on the body and mind to shoot. Realistically, I'd say get a .223 Rem for out to 200 yards - OR get a .243 win, 6mm BR, or .204 Ruger for out to 300 yards. Preferably .243 Win or 6mm BR. The absolute max recoiler I'd choose for anything under 600, is the stellar-performing .260 rem. If you want to stand ready, wiling, and capable to go out to as far as 1,250 yards, then just get a 6.5mm-.284 or a 7mm (something like a 7mm WSM), and be done with it! You are really going to want a low-recoiler, to practice a lot and make it easier on the old shoulder.

I guess my recommendations for you for chambering, roughly in order, if you must try to get out to 200 yards and beyond fairly quickly are:

-.223 Rem
-.204 Ruger
-.243 Win
-6mm BR
-6mm Rem
-.22-250
-.257 Roberts
-.25-'06 Rem
-.260 Rem
-Maybe even the 6mm PPC, the most accurate round ever developed

.308 Win might crack the top 25, and .30-06 wouldn't crack the top 50 choices.


Keep asking lots of questions, both by posting and PMing me.

Bipod? Not only no, but hell no. Sling / Carry strap? No not really - you're shooting from the bench, right? If you are going to practice field positions, then a true sling like a ching sling can be helpful, and even a standard carry strap can help steady the rifle.

 

[ez bake]

Unless... you know... you're actually wanting to shoot over 300yds with precision and available modern-day tools, possibly range-find with the reticle and might possibly want to shoot from the prone position off of a bi-pod.

Here's the thing with long-range shooting (OP). A lot of people say "I want to get into long-range shooting" and sort of pitter out after they figure out that its not cheap/easy to learn.

There are easily 20 or so threads in this section about this very subject. I've started a few and have posted very good info that I was able to find online in several of these threads. I'm by far no expert, but I've learned a lot over the course of the past few years from a lot of folks here who know what they're talking about.

One of the big things with long-range is consistency. Get a rifle that is repeatable, but you don't have to spend a fortune on everything - just know what you're buying if you go budget (online reviews are a big help for this).

If you're planning on shooting kneeling/standing/prone/bench then get a good sling and learn to use it properly in the various positions and either shoot off of sandbags in the prone (or if you're planning on doing a lot of prone shooting) get a bipod.

They're nice if you're shooting in the prone a lot - especially if you're moving around any (like say... from one distance to another). I used to be against swivel bi-pods, but now I'm doing things differently (read correcting some of my bad habbits), and I'm again looking for a swivel.

More often than not, your rifle will out-shoot you, so you need some good tips/pointers and then you need to practice things the right way (which means lots of ammo).

You can, however, benefit from reading stuff online and researching different topics to get a better feel for things. While the general concept is simple, there is a ton of math behind milliradians and Minutes. Understanding this will help you with doing with things like range-finding (if you're not at a known range), or holdovers/knob-adjustments.

.308 is a good caliber to start with. If you're shooting the rifle correctly, you can shoot a .338 and still handle the recoil (i.e. don't fight the recoil, but position your body correctly, mount the gun properly, and use your natural recoil-buffer to stay correctly behind the rifle and it will absorb it with no issues). That being said, .308 is fairly soft recoil compared to many other calibers.

I'd stay clear of 30-06 for paper-punching due to the extra recoil (with no serious added ballistic benefit - I'm talking about punching paper here), and the cost of ammo.

Cost is also something to consider with .243, and any number of other calibers that are more intended for hunting than paper-punching (especially if, like you said, you're not reloading - I'm in the same boat right now). You can bulk-order .223 and .308 match-grade ammo cheaply.

.223 is less than .308, but at a certain distance, the wind will make you its bitch if you're using .223 - it can be overcome, but with Oklahoma's gusts, its really difficult out past 400-500yds).