Sig and HK question

[HKCHEF]

These guys were on the Columbia, MO PD Swat team when they shot for HK. We got them so drunk in Kansas the night before a state match that they couldn't shoot the next day! Every time we saw them after that they'd refuse to go party with us! Good times!

That is hilarious!

They have nothing on Euro Mullet!

 

[ldp4570]

That is hilarious!

They have nothing on Euro Mullet!

They must have been shooting P7's or P9's back then!!

 

[Glocktogo]

Where's the HK's! WTH?

That pic was taken on bay 2 of the Chapman Academy in Hallsville, MO, just North of Columbia, MO. It was a great place to shoot. I was there when they took this pic. The shooting for the day was over and they had already taken off their gear.

 

[ez bake]

High bore axis has nothing to do with accurate shooting, but it has a lot to do with the fast follow up shots which are critical in USPSA and IDPA. Simply put, the recoil impulse on a gun with a high bore centerline has more leverage against the hand to impart muzzle lift. The higher it lifts, the more a speed shooter will tend to force it back down. That causes successive shots to be off the intended point of aim more often. The other option is to allow the muzzle more time to return to point of aim naturally. That's an undesirable solution in games where winning and loosing is measured in hundredth's of a second.

I get that, but felt recoil is affected by more than just bore axis. Slide weight/design, recoil spring strength, (even the way the grip fits your hands) etc... there are more factors than just Bore axis - I just get tired of seeing bore axis stressed above everything else (not that anyone in this thread is doing that - I have just become a little sensitive to that way of thinking after hearing it pushed above other things).

Lots of guns with higher bore axis seem to be just as fast in the hands of a capable shooter (the 1911/2011 being an example - and its probably the next most popular gun in competition).

 

[Glocktogo]

I get that, but felt recoil is affected by more than just bore axis. Slide weight/design, recoil spring strength, (even the way the grip fits your hands) etc... there are more factors than just Bore axis - I just get tired of seeing bore axis stressed above everything else (not that anyone in this thread is doing that - I have just become a little sensitive to that way of thinking after hearing it pushed above other things).

Lots of guns with higher bore axis seem to be just as fast in the hands of a capable shooter (the 1911/2011 being an example - and its probably the next most popular gun in competition).

Felt recoil is a qualitative rather than quantatative measurement. The felt recoil on the USP .45 and P-97 seems much softer than my G-21. They feel about the same as my KZ-45. The felt recoil on my G-17 is much more harsh when the supppressor is attached, due to the extra weight of the can causing the recoil to be directed into the hand rather than up.

To me, the 1911, Beretta 92 and S&W 3rd Gen guns are at the upper limit of what I would call "low bore centerline" pistols. The P7 and Steyr would fall into the "ultra low bore" category to me. Glocks, M&P's and CZ's would be mid range.

Oddly enough, the worst recoiling pistol I've shot was the Beretta 96 .40. The best were the S&W 945 and P7. Another really good one was the Star Firestar .40. That has more to do with chamber pressure when the barrel unlocks than bore axis or slide/recoil spring weights.

It would be interesting to see a test where various pistols were placed in a mechanical rest that would allow them to return to point of aim, and allow for measurement of recoil impulse (both peak force and pressure curve) and slide cycle time. I'd bet the softest felt recoil guns would all share a gentle pressure curve, but not necessarily the fastest cycle time or lowest peak force.

 

[grwd]

taking money out of it, Sig controls are too slow to use, reset and trigger sucks, they are not good to operate as a lefty, or when shooting weakhand.
Hks are marvels of overengineering. Proofmarks don't win matches or save your life.
The da/sa trigger is a liability for your first shot.
For a casual pistolero or for home defense use, hks and sigs are fine; accurate, reliable. But you'd never see cole trickle driving a minivan.

 

[JD8]

But you'd never see cole trickle driving a minivan.

"Gentlemen, Sig Sauer is proud to introduce..... the Days of Thunder edition P226 for a limited time only."

 

[ez bake]

"Gentlemen, Sig Sauer is proud to introduce..... the Days of Thunder edition P226 for a limited time only."

That's messed up man (or are you serious, because I'll go out and buy it if it's true).

 

[Werewolf]

I was just reading a thread about an HK and Sig and it got me thinking. If Sigs and HK's are such great, incredible, accurate, reliable guns, why aren't they used more in competitions?

Because they are incredibly reliable but not even close to incredibly accurate - at least not in my opinion re: SIGS

I've owned two P220's over the years, still have one of them. Both fall into the categor of pull trigger and go bang. Every time. EACH AND EVERY TIME. No failure ever of any sorts.

Accuracy - give me a break. CZ-75's hands down more accurate right out of the box. S&W 1911 hands down more accurate right out of the box. Kimber Ultra Tac 2 even with it's 3.00" bbl hands down more accurate out of the box. And all have failed at one time or another over the years and that cannot be said of the Sigs.

Why are Sigs not used in competition (I've not ever seen one used) - good question because reliability is important in competition - I used to use a CZ-75B SA in IPSC shooting - not anymore. Sucker failed on me at an inopportune time. In general when talking IPSC or IDPA reliability and speed are king. As long as the gun is accurate enough to hit the standard sillhouette somewhere it's accurate enough.

That said over the years I've noticed that at the local level anyway 9 out of 10 competition pistols are 1911's. Just the way it is. I started out with a Glock 22, moved to a CZ-75 and ended up using a 1911 myself. Ask me why and I couldn't honestly give an answer. Just the way it worked out.

Along the way it never even occured to me to use my P220's. Just didn't.

 

[ez bake]

Because they are incredibly reliable but not even close to incredibly accurate - at least not in my opinion re: SIGS

I've owned two P220's over the years, still have one of them. Both fall into the categor of pull trigger and go bang. Every time. EACH AND EVERY TIME. No failure ever of any sorts.

Accuracy - give me a break. CZ-75's hands down more accurate right out of the box. S&W 1911 hands down more accurate right out of the box. Kimber Ultra Tac 2 even with it's 3.00" bbl hands down more accurate out of the box. And all have failed at one time or another over the years and that cannot be said of the Sigs.

Why are Sigs not used in competition (I've not ever seen one used) - good question because reliability is important in competition - I used to use a CZ-75B SA in IPSC shooting - not anymore. Sucker failed on me at an inopportune time. In general when talking IPSC or IDPA reliability and speed are king. As long as the gun is accurate enough to hit the standard sillhouette somewhere it's accurate enough.

That said over the years I've noticed that at the local level anyway 9 out of 10 competition pistols are 1911's. Just the way it is. I started out with a Glock 22, moved to a CZ-75 and ended up using a 1911 myself. Ask me why and I couldn't honestly give an answer. Just the way it worked out.

Along the way it never even occured to me to use my P220's. Just didn't.

That's the first thing I've ever read about Sig's accuracy. Guess I just got lucky with all 7 of mine - they're all more accurate than most of the other guns anywhere near the price (and I'm a CZ fan - I've owned 3 of them and still have a P-01).

I'll grant that the high bore axis and DA first trigger count for some speed-loss when comparing to a race-gun (or even a Glock - as much as I hate to admit), but again - I train with what I carry specifically so that I can shoot what I carry better, I'm not a competitor looking to win a match, so that extra speed I'd gain with a Glock (which I find less comfortable to shoot a lot with and its honestly no more accurate or reliable than my P228) or slicked up 1911/2011 isn't worth the money.

To each his own though, I don't fault those who run race-guns - I think its cool honestly, but I've no interest (read enough time/money) in doing it myself.