SWAT guns down US Marine in home

[Michael Brown]

Point to consider: SWAT knew his work schedule, and the schedule of his wife and kids. Why not detain him when he's leaving work, and execute the warrant on the house simultaneously? Most likely, the same goal is accomplished without having to fire a single shot, and nobody has to die (citizens or police)

If the reports are correct, the police were serving multiple, simultaneous warrants. This is typically done when there is belief that there is some type of collusion between the suspects.

If you arrest one suspect or serve one warrant at a different location as the rest, it is reasonable to assume that the others will dispose of any evidence that remains.

Since what we hae read or viewed so far has been media reports, we probably don't know all the facts and know little of any of the other warrants served. Thus the polioce might have been much more concerned about other suspects and chose to serve the warrants at this time.

The bottom line is that the majority of posters in this thread do not have the knowledge base or experience to make educated speculation, yet feel overwhelmingly compelled to do so.


Regarding the over-arching issue in this thread:

I too have questions about our country's "war on drugs" but it's way above my pay grade, just as a Marine may have had questions about Guadalcanal, the Chosin Reservoir, 73 Easting, or Iraq and Afghanistan today.

But they serve anyway because that's what they do and who they are.

Just as the officers who served the warrants might or might not have had questions, but they serve anyway because it's who they are and what they do.

Just as there are those (NOT directed at you gsarg) who don't serve anything but themselves and criticize those that do on internet forums because criticizing is who they are and what they do.

Michael Brown

 

[Michael Brown]

I have complied fully with your earlier recommendations. The question wasn't pointed to be inflammatory. I actually looked up cycle rates for common subguns and police M4s to see how long of a trigger pull that would be (assuming they were running FA). The number just didn't seem likely.

IF your post was not intended to be inflammatory, and I still have my doubts, if you look ay the cyclic rate of subguns and carbines, a single officer could fire anywhere from 13 to 18 rounds per second.

If three officers were firing, they could fire 71 rounds in under two seconds and that would presume the suspect was hit AND reacted in exactly that timeframe.

The point being, I am confident that someone with your intelligence does not really believe it is unlikely.

Again, post accordingly and consider yourself directly warned.

Michael Brown

 

[Michael Brown]

They do CPR/epi/atropine on dead people for up to two hours sometimes in the hospital before the code is called.

In the field, EMSA declares people without doing a number of things in much shorter time frames. This does not reek of conspiracy.

Michael Brown

 

[penismightier]

I still have a lot of trouble reconciling the fact that he was denied medical attention. I just don't get that at all.

I personally know of two young women who took 8 and 9 rounds of 9mm each to the chest at around the same distance and survived with prompt medical attention. No matter that, why on earth wouldn't he get medical attention anyway to determine if they could have saved him?

Prompt medical attention is the key word. EVEN if he were still alive, they had to remove all occupants, finish primary and secondary searches before its safe to allow medic personnel inside. And before you say that SWAT teams have medics, NO, they all don’t have them, and even if they do, they are limited as to how much they could help someone in that situation (read: not legally or by rules, but by actuality)

That is a question I have as well. Earlier we hear 71 shots fired, now someone is claiming he was struck 60 times. With no indication of the number of active shooters or what they were shooting, it's hard to see if 60 hits would be likely or even prudent. Who is producing the numbers we're hearing, and did they say anything else?

Arizona Daily Star Reported the number of shots.
http://azstarnet.com/article_13c1bf16-80b6-11e0-87f1-001cc4c002e0.html


On May 5, five members of the SWAT team fired 71 shots at Guerena while serving a search warrant at the 7100 block of South Redwater Drive. He was shot 60 times.

I could get this information pretty easily.

EDIT: Okay, maybe not "easily" but I think think you could trail the guy from his house. And with the resources the PD have, I don't see why they may even need to do that.

If you get reliable information which leads you to ask for a search warrant, you don’t always have the time to gather this information. I’ve worked on things before where they got info in the morning and we ran the search warrant by noon.

 

[LightningCrash]

IF your post was not intended to be inflammatory, and I still have my doubts, if you look ay the cyclic rate of subguns and carbines, a single officer could fire anywhere from 13 to 18 rounds per second.

If three officers were firing, they could fire 71 rounds in under two seconds and that would presume the suspect was hit AND reacted in exactly that timeframe.

The point being, I am confident that someone with your intelligence does not really believe it is unlikely.

Again, post accordingly and consider yourself directly warned.

Michael Brown

And that's the only way I could see it happening, three through the door with subguns or carbines, but two seconds would mean all were able to start firing at the same time. It seemed outright impossible with pistols. I figured up 11.66 to 15.83 rds/sec. based on MP5, MP5K and M4. Since we have purportedly 71rds fired then it does lend itself to 3 officers, given 30rd magazines.
But assuming that you went through the doorway one at a time and the first officer opened fire as soon as he got inside there would be a bit of a time spread as each officer cleared to fire, and presumably each officer that fired in sequence would have fired less rounds in the incident, as the threat was neutralized.

I continue to post accordingly.

Arizona Daily Star Reported the number of shots.
http://azstarnet.com/article_13c1bf16-80b6-11e0-87f1-001cc4c002e0.html

I guess they're sourcing that from the Sheriff's Office somewhere. I guess we'll find out the final results from the ME report.

 

[HMFIC]

Prompt medical attention is the key word. EVEN if he were still alive, they had to remove all occupants, finish primary and secondary searches before its safe to allow medic personnel inside. And before you say that SWAT teams have medics, NO, they all don’t have them, and even if they do, they are limited as to how much they could help someone in that situation (read: not legally or by rules, but by actuality)

The medics were on scene in two minutes...
1 hour and 14 minutes later they heard the call on the radio that the man was dead.

What "rules" caused that? I'm still having trouble reconciling it and your rebuttal to things that I didn't say doesn't help me to find an explaination at all.

Pretty much as I quoted before:

His wife Vanessa was hiding in the closet with their 4-year-old son during the shooting. When she emerged, she saw her husband on the floor in a pool of blood, but still alive. Vanessa told KGUN9 she called 911 and pleaded with deputies to treat his wounds.

"The only thing I told them was take care of him, take him to a hospital," she said.

KGUN9 News requested the emergency call records for Drexel Heights Fire Rescue. The 911 call center notified Drexel Heights at 9:43 a.m. A unit arrived just two minutes later at 9:45. However, deputies told rescue workers to stay put. That's standard to be sure they won't walk into a dangerous situation. But paramedics waited until 10:59 a.m. Then they heard the radio call "Code 900", which meant they were no longer needed because the person was dead.

After one hour and 14 minutes, Drexel Heights indicated they were never allowed to even examine Jose .

 

[inactive]

Regarding the over-arching issue in this thread:

I too have questions about our country's "war on drugs" but it's way above my pay grade, just as a Marine may have had questions about Guadalcanal, the Chosin Reservoir, 73 Easting, or Iraq and Afghanistan today.

But they serve anyway because that's what they do and who they are.

Just as the officers who served the warrants might or might not have had questions, but they serve anyway because it's who they are and what they do.

On this we agree. I certainly have no ill will towards the officers that were involved and feel for them for having to have been involved in the scenario. Even with the proper mindset, no reasonable person desires such an outcome.


Edit to add:

I guess it is worth noting that Tucson/Pima County is the liberal and/or Democratic stronghold in the Republican State of Arizona. As a result, you can imagine that the reporting - particularly the Op/Ed - will be biased heavily to question the status quo of their government and the rest of the state's decisions and affairs; they especially deplore Sheriff Joe and thus tend to make all police actions (not just Maricopa's) out to be overly-authoritarian and unruly.

 

[RidgeHunter]

I continue to post accordions.

[Broken External Image]

 

[338Shooter]

I like that gold one.

 

[penismightier]

The medics were on scene in two minutes...
1 hour and 14 minutes later they heard the call on the radio that the man was dead.

What "rules" caused that? I'm still having trouble reconciling it and your rebuttal to things that I didn't say doesn't help me to find an explaination at all.

Pretty much as I quoted before:

They are not going to let medics enter the residence until it is secure.


The wife was hiding in the closet on the phone for over 5 minutes.


They still had to finish primary and secondary searches of residence before allowing medics in. This would not be a quick undertaking due to the fact they have already fired shots, a "barricaded" woman had already been removed (after 5 minutes hiding), and a child was still in the residence.