1. so nice to see this thread go 14 pages without getting locked!! great job
2. i really want to comment, because i LOVE discussing this stuff (actually preaching sunday and working on my lesson now) but having trouble figuring out exactly what is being discussed??
3. i will make a couple of comments
a. just because someone claims to be a christian does not mean they "properly" represent God. Remember the Pharisees (who claimed to be the "best" at being closest to God) were condemned worse than anyone. So don't spend too much time that debating about people that use Christianity for personal gain, money, pride, etc... because they exist and always will...
b. it is very tough to discuss some of these things in short snippets like this because like a puzzle they all tie in. Faith and works, belief and obedience, etc.. There are basic laws of theology that must be followed for the bible to make sense. the law of contradiction, never base the clear on the unclear, etc...
c. Free will vs. "no" free will... it is funny that this is being discussed because i have studied this heavily and i am do not have a "clear" answer. I do not believe in "predetermined election" nor irresistible grace, but (i didn't read everything in this thread) the points made for "no" free will are stronger than the points made for free will. Now with that being said i do believe in that it is a combination of free will and sovereignty of God, what i mean by that is
1. we know that God will not give us more than we can handle
2. If we truly seek him he will answer
3. all things work together for good to those who love God
4. God does not force anyone to follow him
so there has to be some sort of "meddling" (for lack of a better term) for the first 3 to be true, but also for the 4th to be true we must have some sort of free will. that may mean that in the same way that Jesus didn't do miracles for certain people (herod, pharisees), but did for other people, because he knew with the pharisees and herod it wouldn't do any good.
2. i really want to comment, because i LOVE discussing this stuff (actually preaching sunday and working on my lesson now) but having trouble figuring out exactly what is being discussed??
3. i will make a couple of comments
a. just because someone claims to be a christian does not mean they "properly" represent God. Remember the Pharisees (who claimed to be the "best" at being closest to God) were condemned worse than anyone. So don't spend too much time that debating about people that use Christianity for personal gain, money, pride, etc... because they exist and always will...
b. it is very tough to discuss some of these things in short snippets like this because like a puzzle they all tie in. Faith and works, belief and obedience, etc.. There are basic laws of theology that must be followed for the bible to make sense. the law of contradiction, never base the clear on the unclear, etc...
c. Free will vs. "no" free will... it is funny that this is being discussed because i have studied this heavily and i am do not have a "clear" answer. I do not believe in "predetermined election" nor irresistible grace, but (i didn't read everything in this thread) the points made for "no" free will are stronger than the points made for free will. Now with that being said i do believe in that it is a combination of free will and sovereignty of God, what i mean by that is
1. we know that God will not give us more than we can handle
2. If we truly seek him he will answer
3. all things work together for good to those who love God
4. God does not force anyone to follow him
so there has to be some sort of "meddling" (for lack of a better term) for the first 3 to be true, but also for the 4th to be true we must have some sort of free will. that may mean that in the same way that Jesus didn't do miracles for certain people (herod, pharisees), but did for other people, because he knew with the pharisees and herod it wouldn't do any good.