Religious Topics and Questions

[MaddSkillz]

In my mind it is for 2 reasons, one to continually recognize our dependence on God, and secondly, because he wants us to.




The question is not why God condemns some, but rather why he saves any at all? Are we not all guilty? Is there anything in us apart from the Grace of God that deserves mercy? Justice dictates that we are guilty and should pay the price of seperation or hell. It is only through His mercy that anyone is saved. Here you and I will disagree on the existence of Hell. You cannot truly appreciate the benefits of heaven without the existence of the opposite. If you will look all of creation portrays this also, sweet tastebuds, sour tastebuds, joy, and sorrow, etc. I can appreciate enjoying the ministry of an individual, but caution against following a man, even Martin Zender. He is as fallible as all of us, and can contextually bring scriptures out to prove his point like many have done in this thread. To be honest, I have not been able to listen to the clips, my computer is messing up right now, but will be listening to them as soon as I can, it sounds like he has an interesting insight from your quotes.

Here's a good write up on Geenna and "hell."
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheGehennaOfFire.html

THE RAVINE OF HINNOM

indent.gif (54 bytes)In popular theology, in accord with ancient tradition, it is claimed that “Gehenna” is a symbolic expression used in reference to eternal punishment. Milton also employs it thus in his familiar lines:
“The pleasant Valley of Hinnom, Tophet thence
And black Gehenna call’d, the Type of hell.”
Paradise Lost, Book One, lines 404,405

In the Scriptures, however, “Gehenna” (“hell,” AV)-all incredible myths to the contrary notwithstanding-does not speak of “the place of the eternal torments of the damned.” Instead, it refers to an actual place on earth, namely, the valley (or “ravine”) of Hinnom (Neh.11:30) in the land of Israel. The ravine of Hinnom is a valley to the southwest of Jerusalem (“the ravine of the son of Hinnom”; Joshua 15:8). The Hebrew phrase gê (“ravine of”) hinnom became geenna in Greek, whence Gehenna in Latin and English.

 

[MaddSkillz]

More on "hell from the same link above.

THE OLD ENGLISH “hell,” denoted that which is covered (hidden or unseen). Consequently, it once served as a suitable translation of the Greek hades, which means “imperceptible” or “unseen.” In modern English, however, due to the corrupting influence of human tradition, “hell” has come to mean “the abode of the dead; the place of punishment after death [in which the dead are alive].” Consequently, since in modern English the notion represented by the term “hell” constitutes, to say the least, interpretation, not translation, it is unconscionable for modern translators to render either the Hebrew sheol or the Greek hades by this expression.

indent.gif (54 bytes)Yet it is worse still, whether in old English or modern English, to render the Greek tartarosas and especially the Greek geenna, also as “hell.” Such “translations” are not translations at all; they are but the product of circular reasoning and hoary tradition. Whatever one’s understanding may be concerning the matters to which these words make reference, as a translation of the Original, the rendering “hell,” in all cases, is wholly unjustifiable. Yet it is this very rendering, the single term, “hell,” for all these distinct words in the Original, which has spawned all the familiar talk concerning “hell” which prevails among “Bible-believing Christians” today.

Jesus only said two words that we have gotten "hell" from. One was "Geenna" which I touched on (it's an actual physical location on earth) and the other is "hades" which is accurately translated into "unseen" or "unperception." Which actually makes sense when you include what Ecclesiastes 9:5 says... The dead do no know a thing.

It all comes together and makes complete sense.

 

[Podman]

Go to gospelrevolution.com or Grace Church International websites and get the truth about why all are saved.
http://www.gospelrevolution.com/. There are others who believe this way also. It takes some time and study but you will figure it out. Good luck.

 

[Preacherman]

Is it God's will for me to sin? No, it is not and so therefore I must have free will. If I did not then I would not sin. The problem is that I sin everyday. I too am enjoying reading this thread. Let me throw this out and see what you think. The only reason that there are so many different religions is because of the belief that the bible is open to interpretation. According to Scripture there is only one body of Christ. Religion is man made and therefore it is flawed. The fact is what ever I think does not change what God says. There are several gaps to cross if I am going to get it right. Gap one is a cronological gap. It was written in a different time. However it is timeless. Gap two is a cultural gap. It was written in a different culture. However it applies today. Third is a language gap. It was wirtten when people spoke differently. However it still speaks today. Forth is a presupositional gap. I have to look past what I have been taught that it means and also look past what I have believed. Scripture has only one meaning and that is the authors original intent. The word of God is what has the power to change lives and not my opinion. God never calls anyone to be religious. He calls us to be righteous according to His standards and not ours. I am like all others and I need a lot of help. I am so thankful that I don't have to earn it.

 

[MaddSkillz]

Is it God's will for me to sin? No, it is not and so therefore I must have free will. If I did not then I would not sin. The problem is that I sin everyday. I too am enjoying reading this thread. Let me throw this out and see what you think. The only reason that there are so many different religions is because of the belief that the bible is open to interpretation. According to Scripture there is only one body of Christ. Religion is man made and therefore it is flawed. The fact is what ever I think does not change what God says. There are several gaps to cross if I am going to get it right. Gap one is a cronological gap. It was written in a different time. However it is timeless. Gap two is a cultural gap. It was written in a different culture. However it applies today. Third is a linquistic gap. It was wirtten when people spoke differently. However it still speaks today. Forth is a presupositional gap. I have to look past what I have been taught that it means and also look past what I have believed. Scripture has only one meaning and that is the authors original intent. The word of God is what has the power to change lives and not my opinion. God never calls anyone to be religious. He calls us to be righteous according to His standards and not ours. I am like all others and I need a lot of help. I am so thankful that I don't have to earn it.

But you do have to earn if you believe in belief based salvation. You have to do the research, find that it's right to you and then make the decision. In the end, it's your will-power that saves you just as it is Joe Bob's will power or lack thereof that damns him.

All the work at the cross and still no salvation. Alter calls should be stated, "Come forward and accomplish what Jesus left undone."

 

[gillman7]

ahhh, ya'll are going to keep me up all night answering questions

addressing what about people that haven't heard of Jesus, the passage below says that there is a moral law that we are all governed by and God will judge those people by that moral law, but we understand from the bible (and the passage below) that you are held responsible for the knowledge you have, meaning you shouldn't be concerned with other people, but if you have the knowledge of the bible and Jesus that is the standard you will be held to..... in the same way that people that "teach" will be held to a higher standard than others....

Romans 2

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Once again, even creation itself testifies to the one true God, Rom 1:18-20, in the same way you bring up reason and moral law. Romans 1 & 2 speak of this very thing.

Maddskillz you asked for a verse on free choice here are some.

Ac 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Ac 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Mt 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

All of these verses indicate the fact that man makes a free choice to obey and be saved or reject and be lost.

Actually none of these talk of free will? To take these out of context of the whole of Scripture does a great disservice to the Gospel. If any will hear my knock, again, how can a dead person hear? How can a dead person "save themselves"?

Here's a good write up on Geenna and "hell."
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheGehennaOfFire.html

THE RAVINE OF HINNOM

indent.gif (54 bytes)In popular theology, in accord with ancient tradition, it is claimed that “Gehenna” is a symbolic expression used in reference to eternal punishment. Milton also employs it thus in his familiar lines:
“The pleasant Valley of Hinnom, Tophet thence
And black Gehenna call’d, the Type of hell.”
Paradise Lost, Book One, lines 404,405

In the Scriptures, however, “Gehenna” (“hell,” AV)-all incredible myths to the contrary notwithstanding-does not speak of “the place of the eternal torments of the damned.” Instead, it refers to an actual place on earth, namely, the valley (or “ravine”) of Hinnom (Neh.11:30) in the land of Israel. The ravine of Hinnom is a valley to the southwest of Jerusalem (“the ravine of the son of Hinnom”; Joshua 15:8). The Hebrew phrase gê (“ravine of”) hinnom became geenna in Greek, whence Gehenna in Latin and English.

To be honest, I don't know where heaven is, and don't know where hell is. I read in there about Christ coming back and setting up a new Jerusalem on earth, and talking of hell on earth. I here that heaven is being in the presence of God, and hell being the abscence of God. I am not being flippant at all, and don't mean to be offensive, but this is the part that I take on faith. I have no control if there is or is not, what it is, or what it isn't, I leave that in the hands of God. I know that I have a great opportunity to learn more of him, and teach to my family about Him. And trust me, I learn something new every day!!

 

[Preacherman]

But you do have to earn if you believe in belief based salvation. You have to do the research, find that it's right to you and then make the decision. In the end, it's your will-power that saves you just as it is Joe Bob's will power or lack thereof that damns him.

All the work at the cross and still no salvation. Alter calls should be stated, "Come forward and accomplish what Jesus left undone."

So, your saying that God's own Son could not complete the work on His own and what He did is not enough? If that is the case then what could I do to add to it?

 

[BadBadJohn]

Wow! This is some good reading. I'm still sorry for getting the last one locked by joking around lol.

For Maddskillz: I would keep in mind that when quoting scripture that a lot of it is open to interpretation.Not Religious

"But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation...." 1 Peter 1:20

 

[spd67]

In my mind it is for 2 reasons, one to continually recognize our dependence on God, and secondly, because he wants us to.




The question is not why God condemns some, but rather why he saves any at all? Are we not all guilty? Is there anything in us apart from the Grace of God that deserves mercy? Justice dictates that we are guilty and should pay the price of seperation or hell. It is only through His mercy that anyone is saved. Here you and I will disagree on the existence of Hell. You cannot truly appreciate the benefits of heaven without the existence of the opposite. If you will look all of creation portrays this also, sweet tastebuds, sour tastebuds, joy, and sorrow, etc. I can appreciate enjoying the ministry of an individual, but caution against following a man, even Martin Zender. He is as fallible as all of us, and can contextually bring scriptures out to prove his point like many have done in this thread. To be honest, I have not been able to listen to the clips, my computer is messing up right now, but will be listening to them as soon as I can, it sounds like he has an interesting insight from your quotes.




Not off topic at all. That is what I have been talking about in my other posts. You cannot understand salvation by looking only at the act of belief and following, you must have a correct understanding of who God is. If you don't start with God and then go to man, rather than look at what man needs to do, you will have flawed theology every time. We are not stating silly facts like what is the number of infinity, or creating a rock so big he can't lift it, we are talking about the very essence and character of God. Either he is sovereign, and all creation moves at his command or he isn't. If he isn't, then you need to follow what ever popular figure in history you like the best. God spoke and created, he said let there be light and there was light. Either he is omnipotent or he isn't. There is no middle ground, you cannot make God into the image you want him to be. It is vanity for man to say he is all powerful in all things except when he is calling his people to himself.

Spot on....great reply....

 

[MaddSkillz]

To be honest, I don't know where heaven is, and don't know where hell is. I read in there about Christ coming back and setting up a new Jerusalem on earth, and talking of hell on earth. I here that heaven is being in the presence of God, and hell being the abscence of God. I am not being flippant at all, and don't mean to be offensive, but this is the part that I take on faith. I have no control if there is or is not, what it is, or what it isn't, I leave that in the hands of God. I know that I have a great opportunity to learn more of him, and teach to my family about Him. And trust me, I learn something new every day!!

Well, there's 3 possible options for "hell," in the scriptures.

Tartaroo
Geenna
hades

All different names, different words but yet somehow they all define "hell."

There's very good reasoning behind them not being anything close to that.