Good discussions from everyone. Appreciate the information.
You’ve literally taken every single point I’ve said out of context and made comparisons that make zero sense. I’ve made my points, you’ve brought a Ford Taurus into yours. I will stick with what I have.
I mentioned the Taurus because that at 75 MPH was the most tissue disruption I’ve seen to a person, better than a 30-06 at point blank range. It’s traveling 2465 FPS slower than the FBIT3. A little over the top granted, but speed doesn’t kill. Kinetic energy, tissue disruption and penetration do.
Let me try this a different way. MK262 has drastically more kinetic energy than 55 grain rounds, and markedly more than 62 grain FBIT3. It is generally regarded as the best non barrier blind defensive round under 200 yards (DRASTICALLY further than realistic engagement distance for civilian defensive shootings). Like you said you can do you, that’s one of the things that makes America great.
It should be noted that I don’t carry MK262. I carry 75 grain Gold Dot.
Youre only focusing on a single point. This is something the FBI learned the hard way when using a single testing method for their ammunition selection, and then realized later that the choice they made didnt work in a lot of scenarios, nor in other weapons. Since whatever ammo I purchase has to be approved by the FBI, I live with their stupid decisions daily. I dont disagree that more energy hurts more, but you are incorrect about velocity not being a variable. It is not the ONLY variable, but as I have stated, the correct solution is a proper combination of weight and velocity that matches the projectile.
If velocity didnt matter at all, then you could take a 175 gr bullet from a 300 blackout, 308, 300 win and 300 Norma mag, and they would all do the same damage. We know that isnt the case because in this example, velocity makes a significant difference in energy with the lowest being around 1/4 the energy of the highest. Much like your Taurus example, this is on the extreme end, but never the less, a perfect example of the same projectile in different scenarios.
Now lets look at WHY both velocity and weight need to be calculated properly based on projectile, instead of only considering energy as your primary factor. Both can be variables that affect penetration, energy, and the eventual jacketing/destruction of the projectile into a cavity, person, wall, or material. Having high weight low velocity isnt where you want to be, nor is having high velocity and low weight. These are simple articles I found showing the higher velocity rounds cause more damage, especially above 2700 fps.
WOUND BALLISTICS - Motion and Effects of Projectiles in the Human Body - White Mountain Forensic
Dr Andrew provides an evaluation of firearm Injuries, and the tissue damage associated with them. The damage caused by projectiles is a function of their kinetic energy, which is transferred to the victim on impact. The amount of energy that the projectile possesses is found in the following...
www.whitemountainforensic.com
Both state that above critical velocities, there is significantly more damage done. By reducing the 223 to slower speeds, you are taking away one of the factors that makes the 223 deadly in such a small round. Sure it will still do damage, but the 223 is designed to be a high speed round, and most rounds are specifically designed around longer barrels. By going to a heavier bullet in a short barrel, youve hindered the output of this round from how it was originally designed.
Im sure 75 and 77 gr will still hurt plenty if you ever have to use it in self defense, but the lighter rounds perform better in shorter barrels because they maintain velocity. The 62-64 gr stuff is fantastic in a 10.5 or 11.5 inch barrel and balances a heavier weight with good velocity. If you want to keep reading other forums and base your claims off a single factory such as energy, that really has zero relevancy to how a bullet stops a flesh target, then do so. Over penetration is a significant issue when you have a round designed to fragment that impacts at below its designed velocity, which means none of that energy is delivered.
I said a few times that tissue disruption, penetration and kinetic energy kill. The velocity you lose between your chosen rounds and MK262 is around 150fps. In the grand scheme of things, that’s pretty much moot.Youre only focusing on a single point. This is something the FBI learned the hard way when using a single testing method for their ammunition selection, and then realized later that the choice they made didnt work in a lot of scenarios, nor in other weapons. Since whatever ammo I purchase has to be approved by the FBI, I live with their stupid decisions daily. I dont disagree that more energy hurts more, but you are incorrect about velocity not being a variable. It is not the ONLY variable, but as I have stated, the correct solution is a proper combination of weight and velocity that matches the projectile.
If velocity didnt matter at all, then you could take a 175 gr bullet from a 300 blackout, 308, 300 win and 300 Norma mag, and they would all do the same damage. We know that isnt the case because in this example, velocity makes a significant difference in energy with the lowest being around 1/4 the energy of the highest. Much like your Taurus example, this is on the extreme end, but never the less, a perfect example of the same projectile in different scenarios.
Now lets look at WHY both velocity and weight need to be calculated properly based on projectile, instead of only considering energy as your primary factor. Both can be variables that affect penetration, energy, and the eventual jacketing/destruction of the projectile into a cavity, person, wall, or material. Having high weight low velocity isnt where you want to be, nor is having high velocity and low weight. These are simple articles I found showing the higher velocity rounds cause more damage, especially above 2700 fps.
and anotherWOUND BALLISTICS - Motion and Effects of Projectiles in the Human Body - White Mountain Forensic
Dr Andrew provides an evaluation of firearm Injuries, and the tissue damage associated with them. The damage caused by projectiles is a function of their kinetic energy, which is transferred to the victim on impact. The amount of energy that the projectile possesses is found in the following...www.whitemountainforensic.com
Both state that above critical velocities, there is significantly more damage done. By reducing the 223 to slower speeds, you are taking away one of the factors that makes the 223 deadly in such a small round. Sure it will still do damage, but the 223 is designed to be a high speed round, and most rounds are specifically designed around longer barrels. By going to a heavier bullet in a short barrel, youve hindered the output of this round from how it was originally designed.
Im sure 75 and 77 gr will still hurt plenty if you ever have to use it in self defense, but the lighter rounds perform better in shorter barrels because they maintain velocity. The 62-64 gr stuff is fantastic in a 10.5 or 11.5 inch barrel and balances a heavier weight with good velocity. If you want to keep reading other forums and base your claims off a single factory such as energy, that really has zero relevancy to how a bullet stops a flesh target, then do so. Over penetration is a significant issue when you have a round designed to fragment that impacts at below its designed velocity, which means none of that energy is delivered.
This is from the source material of the first link you posted:
MAJOR MISCONCEPTIONS
1. Idolatry of Velocity:
A widespread dogma claims that wounds caused by "high-velocity" projectiles must be treated by extensive excision of tissue around the missile path (34-40), whereas those caused by "low-velocity" missiles need little or no treatment (41, 42). Two half-truths nurture this error. The first of these, "Cavitation is a ballistic phenomenon associated with very high velocity missiles" (7), is easily disproved. The wound profile in Fig 1 shows a very substantial temporary cavity produced by a low-velocity" bullet. This bullet, fired from the Vetterli rifle at 1357 ft/s (414 m/s), has ballistic characeristics typical of those used by military forces in the latter half of the nineteenth century. It is the same bullet used by Theodor Kocher for most of his wound ballistics studies (23-27). It is obvious from this wound profile that temporary cavitation is not, as popularly believed, a modern phenomenon associated exclusively with projectiles of "high velocity."”In the end it’s like I said, you do you. I would highly recommend you look into the work of Dr Gary K. Roberts though.
Also this matters a lot less with the use of proper TTP’s and accurate rounds, but this is an ammo recommendation thread.
Mine is loaded with 62gr Gold Dots.
I run what my rifles like. My Noveske runs Federal TRU, bonded and ballistic tip depending on use and Speer GD 62gr. My LaRue runs Federal 69gr GMM. I think people seem to forget that whatever the heck you decide to run, whether it's a BT, HP, bonded, etc. and it's a quality ammo from a reputable manufacturer, and your rifle shoots it well, those rounds will do the damage it needs with proper shot placement. Sure, there will be instances where you'll need a bonded or barrier round, depending on where BG or whatever you're shooting at is, but no one scenario is the same and you just gotta embrace the suck and use what you got. So I'd much rather have rounds that I know my rifles shoot half minute with, with DOPE out to realistic ranges with it and use what I got.
Will a bonded round penetrate more than a BT round, yeah, maybe, but I don't think anyone of you guys arguing here would want to get shot with any flavor of .223/5.56 in a vital spot.
Will a bonded round penetrate more than a BT round, yeah, maybe, but I don't think anyone of you guys arguing here would want to get shot with any flavor of .223/5.56 in a vital spot.
Psh, nobody asked you.
And for the record I won’t volunteer to get shot with a paintball gun, let alone a 556.
On side note, F*** LaRue. We’ve been waiting around 2 years for 2 OBR 7.62’s.
Speer dold dot 55 and 62gr are supposed to expand a low sbr velocity reliably.
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