1911 Heirarchy

[Traxxis]

It's been more than a few years I believe. I dunno if he is building guns anywhere but I heard he was going to build airplanes? I have NO idea if that's true, just that Nowlin pushed him out. I had two guns on order, and I cancelled them immediately after meeting "the Greek" or whomever that guy is they have doing guns.

The "Greek" is Norman, right?

Have you met him? Wouldn't strike me as a gunsmith, but she said that when he sits down to start working on a gun, his hands are rock steady.

 

[JD8]

Don't misunderstand, they aren't Sarco's roto barrels.

I didn't, we weren't talking about the quality of the barrels.

Here's how you tell the difference... if you look at the right side of the barrel, top left on the right lug will be a little "D" if it's drop in. If it's not there, it's a NM barrel.

Actually, theres much more differences between the two starting with the hood and lugs. I understand this, which is why I'm asking these questions.

What I'm saying is that Wilson Combat is VERY good at running a business. They are able to consistently deliver a product within a quoted time frame. Part of that is using their drop in barrels because it speeds up production. Wilson makes a fine product, I never said anything to the contrary.

My line of questioning goes to one point, I dunno if they are using pre-fit barrels or not BUT I am curious as to how this would translate to a pro or con? Wilson guns can shoot what like... 1 1/2" @ 25 yds?? I dunno what they used to advertise, but significantly better any human could shoot.

Have you met him? Wouldn't strike me as a gunsmith, but she said that when he sits down to start working on a gun, his hands are rock steady.

Yep, drove all the way out to his place. Nice guy, I just I know the man couldn't remember my name after repeating it several times. Sorry, but he's not going to remember specifications on two guns if he can't remember my name. Either way, he wasn't Terry so I cancelled.

 

[Traxxis]

Actually, theres much more differences between the two starting with the hood and lugs. I understand this, which is why I'm asking these questions.

My reference was simply for the purpose of determining if it's life started as a drop-in or NM. I realize there's a difference between the two... which makes one "drop-in" and one "gunsmith" fit.

My line of questioning goes to one point, I dunno if they are using pre-fit barrels or not BUT I am curious as to how this would translate to a pro or con? Wilson guns can shoot what like... 1 1/2" @ 25 yds?? I dunno what they used to advertise, but significantly better any human could shoot.

Whether or not it's a pro vs con... I don't really care, as long as it's properly fitted to the gun, it's fine by me, but again, he asked for feedback on the big manufactures, so I gave it.

I say it's a pro in that it helps them deliver a consistent product in a consistent time frame. But a con for somebody expecting a NM barrel and getting a drop in. But in reality, there really aren't many smiths that use full NM barrels anymore. I was talking to the owner of Kart barrels Tuesday about his EZ fit vs the NM and he was saying that almost everybody orders EZ fit's now vs the NM, from the FBI, Dept. of Homeland Security contracts to well known smith shops. It's just too easy (no pun intended) and the drop-ins (if done right of course) can be just as accurate. Of course the Bullseye guys beg to differ.

Now, I will admit, there is a chance I could be wrong on them using drop-in's on all but their super grade (or whatever they call it) because in the quick search I did, I wasn't able to find any pictures of WC's disassembled to see if they are marked "D" or not. I'll do some more digging.

 

[shootermcgavin]

I am not able to comprehend how much better a high-end 1911 can possibly be than a $700 production model. Accurate and reliable is accurate and reliable. What am I missing?

I completely agree, but with an *.......

Different people have different definitions of accurate and reliable.

I would add to those two; ergomonic.

How accurate is accurate enough? How reliable is reliable enough? How comfortable is comfortable enough?

I think that when a 1911 is held, it should be an extension of yourself, it should be melded to yourself like Tony Stark and his suit of armor. No stock gun is going to give you that.

True 1911 operators are skilled pistoleros. They know what the platform's capabilities are, and they are good enough shooters to where the stock platforms are limiting their abilities and performance.

This is similar to dedicated glock operators that know what some mods can do for them, and their shooting.

Folks (and Im not talking about you, Neil; just in general) that look at a custom gun as 30 hundred dollar bills, and look at the aspect of modifying their glock as possibly hurting its value, or their idea of what a gun should look like, just simply dont get it; they are more collectors, or general gun enthusiasts, or are deluding themselves as to their (and their guns) potential.

Good question, Neil. I was in your shoes about 8 years ago. Im pretty deep in the rabbit hole now!

I am not a great shooter and never claimed to be. I am very aware there are a lot of things about guns I don't understand and that I am pretty new to pistols and what have you... but I liken it to my tennis racquets. A lot of people don't understand why I would pay $200 for a racquet when a Wal-Mart racquet cost $15 bucks and can perform the same function. For a while I used a cheap-o wal mart and it got me introduced to the sport. Now though if I am blindfolded and you put a Wal-Mart special in my hand I can tell you it's crap immediately. Both look a lot the same, but to anyone with experience you can tell a difference immediately. I couldn't understand how a racquet was worth $200 bucks more at first, but I sure can now.

Same with my hi-point 9mm. It was a crappy gun and I knew it going into it, but it still served a specific function for me. Was my first pistol and got me introduced to them. Now I have an xd-9 and it is worlds better, no question.

I expect it is the same for 1911's. I plan on getting a SA GI model 1911 soon. It's a cheap gun but good starter gun to get me introduced and currently it will out perform me.

So, I can't understand how a $3,000 gun is worth $2500 more than a RIA or SA or whatever cheap gun you get. But, even though I don't understand how it is worth so much more, I can understand that it is worth so much more.

Sorry for the long rant.

 

[HiredHand]

Aesthetics.
Knowing that all the pieces were fit to work together within very tight tolerances. Seeing a properly fit beavertail, or feeling how a gunsmith fit barrel locks up the same way every time. Knowing that every magazine you own will insert and feed. Not seeing mill marks and rough edges, burrs, and uneven lines. Ever felt 40 LPI checkering?

I'm spoiled to custom. That said, I'd still like to own a Rock River.

I have to ask who did 40 lpi checkering for you and was it the front strap?

 

[JD8]

Now, I will admit, there is a chance I could be wrong on them using drop-in's on all but their super grade (or whatever they call it) because in the quick search I did, I wasn't able to find any pictures of WC's disassembled to see if they are marked "D" or not. I'll do some more digging.

Just broke down my CQB, no D on the side. I'll grab my KZ a bit later. If we find a few then maybe we could start an informal poll on 1911forum and see who has it and who doesn't. I'm curious now.

I was talking to the owner of Kart barrels Tuesday about his EZ fit vs the NM and he was saying that almost everybody orders EZ fit's now vs the NM, from the FBI, Dept. of Homeland Security contracts to well known smith shops. It's just too easy (no pun intended) and the drop-ins (if done right of course) can be just as accurate. Of course the Bullseye guys beg to differ.

The FBI and Homeland security orders Kart barrels? on which guns? Is Springer using them on Pros? That would be news.

 

[grwd]

Im partial to Kart barrels; and I never use the EZ fit.

 

[Traxxis]

Speaking from ownership....

Nighthawk - neat guns but I've seen more inconsistency from them than any other "semi-custom" builder. They DO however have a great CS which is fortunate.

Nowlin - great guns, but nobody is building them anymore, rather they lost consistency when they got rid of Terry Boehler.

Honestly, from what I've heard it seems like the general concensous is that once Sr. died, Nowlin's never been the same.

As for NHC, you're right that they use to be pretty inconsistent, but in the last few years (really since Ron Phillips left), they have really step up the game.

What defines "custom" to you?

 

[Traxxis]

Im partial to Kart barrels; and I never use the EZ fit.

Mike... one look around this forum and it's clear to everybody that you sir... are indeed a rare breed.



I ordered two Karts this week, one 9mm, the other .45. I originally ordered the NM barrels, but switched it to the EZ fit's at Dr. Greyson's suggestion.

 

[Dr. Barry Greyson]

...I like the Gunsmith barrels as well. However, if you have never fitted one from "scratch" or had someone walk you through it the easy fit would be a lot easier to cope with...

Barry