.25 moa on a 300 with a brake, must be a heck of a rifle! and even a better shooter! I mean wow, a 5shot group from 200 .25MOA is like a machine rest. I'd give a boat load of cash for a rifle that will do that. Where do ya get a rifle built like that?
You are claiming to hit 1/4" target (actually 0.200") with 300wm from 200 yards ....
Pics or never happened
I would have to agree with ARGN, 1st rifle probably not a reloader. Savages are a really good deal for the money, some of their tupperware stoke are crap but the wood, laminate & accustock are good. 30-06 for a long action 308 in a short action ammo can be found everywhere (243 is in the ammo everywhere but I am not a fan). Top it with a leupold vxII & don't look back. If it shoots the federal or remington cheap ammo good you will never be without it. For your 2nd make it something different & reload for it
my 12.95 cents
my 12.95 cents
My kind of thread. I'm gonna assume that you want to be ready for anything in North America, including Bison, Yak, Moose, and Brown Bear. I'm also gonna assume that you very well might take up reloading, if you don't already. Next, take what I say with a grain of salt - yes I have read a lot and hunted quite a bit, but I'm far from an expert hunter. Finally, of course, we live and learn. My views 10 years from now will likely change, just as they've changed a bit in the last 10 years. The more time that goes by, the more I'm leaning toward lighter, shorter, and less recoiling. 
First, action type: Seems you've settled on a turnbolt - excellent choice, and would be my recommendation as well, for a variety of reasons.
Next, chambering - my recommendations, in order of preference:
1. .280 Rem
2. .270 Win
3. .30-06 spfld
4. 7mm-08 Rem or 7x57 mauser
5. 6.5x55 Swede
6. .260 Rem
7. .308 Win
8. 7mm Rem Mag
9. .338 Federal
10. .30-30 Win
11. .338-'06 A-square
12. .35 Whelen or 9.3x62mm
13. 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC
14. 7.62x39mm
15. All others, including any .300 maggie or .338 maggie
[My beloved .243 Win round is out due to my assumption that you want to handle bison, moose, brownies, etc. - though it would work for them too, in a pinch, with the right twist rate and bullet].
I'd highly recommend sticking with one of the first two bolded choices, or maybe .30-06. Without going into all the "whys", suffice it to say that these 3 are the best time-tested and proven "goldilocks" rounds. Go with .270 win if you must have extremely common/cheap ammo. Go with .280 if you don't (if you handload). .280 Rem has 99.44% of the performance of the 7mm RM, for all practical intents and purposes at actual hunting ranges, without all the powder cost, brass cost, recoil, and without the stupid belt! .30-06 is never a mistake either. Not quite the versatility of the 6.8 or 7mm rounds due to poorer BCs, but with an incredibly good bullet selection and off-the-shelf ammo selection, including the really heavies, it almost makes up for it, and will re-sell better & faster than a .280, or even a .270.
But please realize (if you don't) that while important, this chambering choice is by far the LEAST important of the considerations here - the rifle, glass, and rings are all more important, IMO. The most important aspect of chambering, besides trajectory, is low recoil, so that you're comfortable shooting lots of rounds, so that you have a situation that fosters wanting to shoot and therefore proficiency. So I definitely would not get anything that recoils more than .30-06 or 7mm RM - as someone said, it's really unnecessary overkill for anything in North America. Besides, .280 rem and 7mm RM have better trajectories than even a .300 maggies, in most hunting bullet weights, so why ever bother with a .300 maggie? If you want a real thumper with a good trajectory, the .35 Whelen, .338-06, and .338 federal are easier on the shoulder than a .300 maggie, and cause less bloodshot meat. Just not a fan of them anymore.... especially since the shoulder injury.
Don't get too wrapped around the axle about expansion, penetration, and killing power (or gawdsakes about "energy"). With modern bullet construction and bullet choices out there, with ANY of these chamberings, you can always find a bullet construction and weight which *matches* your chosen round's velocity, to give you appropriate tradeoffs of penetration and expansion, for your chosen game, whatever it may be. I.e. A .260 rem, with correct bullet choice and shot choice/placement, will kill the largest american game deader than doornail, and just as dead as a .50 bmg would.
Next, rifle: Your budget is quite low, for what I'm now partial & accustomed to (now), but it's enough to get a "good quality" game-killin tool. But you're gonna have to go low-ish budget rifle to get decent glass (have enough $$ left). That means T/C Venture, low-end Howa/Vanguard, low-end Savage or Stevens, or maybe a Rem 700 SPS (though I don't think you can get the SPS with a hunting-weight barrel, can you?).
Of those, the T/C Venture offers the best value, though I wouldn't rule out a Howa or Savage or Stevens. You're probably gonna be limited to the plastic / rubber stocks, to keep the gun price low enough to get decent-good glass and rings. Does the budget include tax/shipping? Include Sling? Rings? Ammo? Willing to by used, or new only? It all makes a difference.
Definitely check out the Venture though. 5R rifling and a number of other nice features, like a heavy duty bolt/lugs, and 60 degree bolt throw. But very importantly is how the rifle fits you, so check out Howa/Vanguard, Savage, Stevens, maybe used CZ 550 if the Venture doesn't "feel" right to you when you shoulder it while scoped. Also extremely important is the *weight* of the rifle - how far are you gonna be packing it, and what's your level of shape & strength? Gonna take it out West to mountainous areas? Unfortunately, your budget is precluding really light ultralights, so I'm gonna assume you're reasonably young & in shape with my Venture recommendations. As a slight bonus, while ugly, the plastic stock does make the heavy-leaning Venture a bit lighter than the more expensive wood-stocked Icon or other wood-stocked guns, economy or otherwise. So, two birds with one stone there with the Venture, or a plastic-stocked Howa/Vanguard/Savage, in the event you have to track long distances, and/or up and down hills. The Howas with the rubber stocks are really nice and grippy, excellent values, and come in some interesting chamberings, like 6.5x55 (one of my favorites). The Savages can be had in 7mm-08, which is an excellent all-purpose chambering.
Next, glass. With your "minimum-maximum" magnif criteria, that leaves pretty much only one choice within your budget - the Elite 6500 2.5-16x42mm. You've *got* to keep a "minimum-minumum" magnif of no more than 2.5 or 3, for the woods / walking game, and only the Elite 6500 offers the adjustment range that can take in both. I *will* be replacing the Monarch 4-16x42 with an Elite 6500 2.5-16x42 on my turnbolt as soon as I can get it and swap. The 4 power is just not low enough for close-in / quick acquisition.
Talley rings, or maybe Warne or Leupold in a pinch.
Glass: $715 delivered (ebay)
Rifle: $450ish, give or take, plus shipping or tax, plus FFL fee.
Leaves you a smidge for the rings - just do it right the first time and get Talley one-piece.
Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.
If you were to ditch the "minimum-maximum" of 12 requirement, and go with 9 or 10 instead, which is what I would recommend, then my recommendations would be completely different. You could spend half of the elite 6500's cost on a scope, and free up enough money for your rifle to be *really* good (meaning Icon, Mark V, Browning, Winchester, Steyr, Sako, Kimber, particularly if you go used), instead of just "good" -- OR, get same economy-ish rifle with better glass in a 3-9x40 config, which are cheaper for the glass quality than something with the adjustment range of the Elite 6500. Though the 6500 is no slouch at all in glass quality, and is both an excellent choice for an all-purpose hunting rig scope, and in fact my choice (the 2.5-16x42 one), for my do-it-all rifle. Well, I say that - not really true - it would be perfect (on a budget), but-for the side focus. Wish they would lose the SF and have a fixed parallax-free setting. But other than than, it would be perfect. As it stands, it's still a very good choice - you normally have time in the field to adjust the focus properly when setting up an ambush or doing a stalk of some kind. P.S. If you do go with the Icon (fantastic rifle and best value in the upper end), then my ring recommendation will switch from Talley to Leupold PRW, since these rifles have built-in rails (though Talleys for rails are good rings too).
FWIW, I've have two .280s now - my do all rifle is a Mark V Ultra Lightweight in .280 with some customizations. The 6.5x55mm swedish is the other true goldilocks round besides .270 and .280 - in my view. .270 *would be* the shiz-nizzle if they'd make more & better bullet choices for it. As it stands, the .280 does everything the .270 will do (except be found in stores), but a lot better. The 7mm bullets really hit the sweet spot of BC, all along the weight spectrum, and the .30-06-cased family of rounds hits a sweet spot of efficiency in rounds over 6.5mm.
And I must strongly disagree with my friend, the learned and experienced Deer Slayer - the last thing on earth you want on a hunting gun is one of them there loudeners, *especially* on a maggie - unless you know you're gonna die young. When you reach old age, well - tinnitus is a *****, and your spouse, kids and grandkids will likely strangle you after a few years of you saying "what" and "huh" to them 100 times/day, not to mention making you miserable in your golden years. Take a bit more pounding on the shoulder to avoid this - well worth it. It only takes ONE unprotected shot with a loudener to permanently damage yourself, with damage that won't reveal itself until decades later. Shoulders can be fixed. Tinnitus can't.
First, action type: Seems you've settled on a turnbolt - excellent choice, and would be my recommendation as well, for a variety of reasons.
Next, chambering - my recommendations, in order of preference:
1. .280 Rem
2. .270 Win
3. .30-06 spfld
4. 7mm-08 Rem or 7x57 mauser
5. 6.5x55 Swede
6. .260 Rem
7. .308 Win
8. 7mm Rem Mag
9. .338 Federal
10. .30-30 Win
11. .338-'06 A-square
12. .35 Whelen or 9.3x62mm
13. 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC
14. 7.62x39mm
15. All others, including any .300 maggie or .338 maggie
[My beloved .243 Win round is out due to my assumption that you want to handle bison, moose, brownies, etc. - though it would work for them too, in a pinch, with the right twist rate and bullet].
I'd highly recommend sticking with one of the first two bolded choices, or maybe .30-06. Without going into all the "whys", suffice it to say that these 3 are the best time-tested and proven "goldilocks" rounds. Go with .270 win if you must have extremely common/cheap ammo. Go with .280 if you don't (if you handload). .280 Rem has 99.44% of the performance of the 7mm RM, for all practical intents and purposes at actual hunting ranges, without all the powder cost, brass cost, recoil, and without the stupid belt! .30-06 is never a mistake either. Not quite the versatility of the 6.8 or 7mm rounds due to poorer BCs, but with an incredibly good bullet selection and off-the-shelf ammo selection, including the really heavies, it almost makes up for it, and will re-sell better & faster than a .280, or even a .270.
But please realize (if you don't) that while important, this chambering choice is by far the LEAST important of the considerations here - the rifle, glass, and rings are all more important, IMO. The most important aspect of chambering, besides trajectory, is low recoil, so that you're comfortable shooting lots of rounds, so that you have a situation that fosters wanting to shoot and therefore proficiency. So I definitely would not get anything that recoils more than .30-06 or 7mm RM - as someone said, it's really unnecessary overkill for anything in North America. Besides, .280 rem and 7mm RM have better trajectories than even a .300 maggies, in most hunting bullet weights, so why ever bother with a .300 maggie? If you want a real thumper with a good trajectory, the .35 Whelen, .338-06, and .338 federal are easier on the shoulder than a .300 maggie, and cause less bloodshot meat. Just not a fan of them anymore.... especially since the shoulder injury.
Don't get too wrapped around the axle about expansion, penetration, and killing power (or gawdsakes about "energy"). With modern bullet construction and bullet choices out there, with ANY of these chamberings, you can always find a bullet construction and weight which *matches* your chosen round's velocity, to give you appropriate tradeoffs of penetration and expansion, for your chosen game, whatever it may be. I.e. A .260 rem, with correct bullet choice and shot choice/placement, will kill the largest american game deader than doornail, and just as dead as a .50 bmg would.
Next, rifle: Your budget is quite low, for what I'm now partial & accustomed to (now), but it's enough to get a "good quality" game-killin tool. But you're gonna have to go low-ish budget rifle to get decent glass (have enough $$ left). That means T/C Venture, low-end Howa/Vanguard, low-end Savage or Stevens, or maybe a Rem 700 SPS (though I don't think you can get the SPS with a hunting-weight barrel, can you?).
Of those, the T/C Venture offers the best value, though I wouldn't rule out a Howa or Savage or Stevens. You're probably gonna be limited to the plastic / rubber stocks, to keep the gun price low enough to get decent-good glass and rings. Does the budget include tax/shipping? Include Sling? Rings? Ammo? Willing to by used, or new only? It all makes a difference.
Definitely check out the Venture though. 5R rifling and a number of other nice features, like a heavy duty bolt/lugs, and 60 degree bolt throw. But very importantly is how the rifle fits you, so check out Howa/Vanguard, Savage, Stevens, maybe used CZ 550 if the Venture doesn't "feel" right to you when you shoulder it while scoped. Also extremely important is the *weight* of the rifle - how far are you gonna be packing it, and what's your level of shape & strength? Gonna take it out West to mountainous areas? Unfortunately, your budget is precluding really light ultralights, so I'm gonna assume you're reasonably young & in shape with my Venture recommendations. As a slight bonus, while ugly, the plastic stock does make the heavy-leaning Venture a bit lighter than the more expensive wood-stocked Icon or other wood-stocked guns, economy or otherwise. So, two birds with one stone there with the Venture, or a plastic-stocked Howa/Vanguard/Savage, in the event you have to track long distances, and/or up and down hills. The Howas with the rubber stocks are really nice and grippy, excellent values, and come in some interesting chamberings, like 6.5x55 (one of my favorites). The Savages can be had in 7mm-08, which is an excellent all-purpose chambering.
Next, glass. With your "minimum-maximum" magnif criteria, that leaves pretty much only one choice within your budget - the Elite 6500 2.5-16x42mm. You've *got* to keep a "minimum-minumum" magnif of no more than 2.5 or 3, for the woods / walking game, and only the Elite 6500 offers the adjustment range that can take in both. I *will* be replacing the Monarch 4-16x42 with an Elite 6500 2.5-16x42 on my turnbolt as soon as I can get it and swap. The 4 power is just not low enough for close-in / quick acquisition.
Talley rings, or maybe Warne or Leupold in a pinch.
Glass: $715 delivered (ebay)
Rifle: $450ish, give or take, plus shipping or tax, plus FFL fee.
Leaves you a smidge for the rings - just do it right the first time and get Talley one-piece.
Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.
If you were to ditch the "minimum-maximum" of 12 requirement, and go with 9 or 10 instead, which is what I would recommend, then my recommendations would be completely different. You could spend half of the elite 6500's cost on a scope, and free up enough money for your rifle to be *really* good (meaning Icon, Mark V, Browning, Winchester, Steyr, Sako, Kimber, particularly if you go used), instead of just "good" -- OR, get same economy-ish rifle with better glass in a 3-9x40 config, which are cheaper for the glass quality than something with the adjustment range of the Elite 6500. Though the 6500 is no slouch at all in glass quality, and is both an excellent choice for an all-purpose hunting rig scope, and in fact my choice (the 2.5-16x42 one), for my do-it-all rifle. Well, I say that - not really true - it would be perfect (on a budget), but-for the side focus. Wish they would lose the SF and have a fixed parallax-free setting. But other than than, it would be perfect. As it stands, it's still a very good choice - you normally have time in the field to adjust the focus properly when setting up an ambush or doing a stalk of some kind. P.S. If you do go with the Icon (fantastic rifle and best value in the upper end), then my ring recommendation will switch from Talley to Leupold PRW, since these rifles have built-in rails (though Talleys for rails are good rings too).
FWIW, I've have two .280s now - my do all rifle is a Mark V Ultra Lightweight in .280 with some customizations. The 6.5x55mm swedish is the other true goldilocks round besides .270 and .280 - in my view. .270 *would be* the shiz-nizzle if they'd make more & better bullet choices for it. As it stands, the .280 does everything the .270 will do (except be found in stores), but a lot better. The 7mm bullets really hit the sweet spot of BC, all along the weight spectrum, and the .30-06-cased family of rounds hits a sweet spot of efficiency in rounds over 6.5mm.
And I must strongly disagree with my friend, the learned and experienced Deer Slayer - the last thing on earth you want on a hunting gun is one of them there loudeners, *especially* on a maggie - unless you know you're gonna die young. When you reach old age, well - tinnitus is a *****, and your spouse, kids and grandkids will likely strangle you after a few years of you saying "what" and "huh" to them 100 times/day, not to mention making you miserable in your golden years. Take a bit more pounding on the shoulder to avoid this - well worth it. It only takes ONE unprotected shot with a loudener to permanently damage yourself, with damage that won't reveal itself until decades later. Shoulders can be fixed. Tinnitus can't.
For my first rifle I bought a .270 after much much thinking and close to 30 hours of research via forums and magazine articles. A .270 can comfortably take elk and has a very flat trajectory which yields long range versatility. I was also considering a .243 at the time due to its similar ballistics but after doing more research and talking with people it has its limitation of white tail being its largest game that most are comfortable shooting with it.
So my limited experience but extensive research lead me to buy a .270 win. I didn't want anything bigger because honestly I doubt pretty highly I will ever get the opportunity to shoot anything bigger. I don't plan to go on any Water buffalo expeditions or anything like that. I bought a Mossberg ATR 100 chambered in .270 Win with a 3x9x40 Nikon Prostaff with the BDC reticle. I shoot Winchester Premium ballistic tips either 135 gr or 130 gr cant remember and these should be good for any white tail in the state. I also have put some Rem Core Lokt 150 gr through it and both run cleanly without incident and on target. The gun got good reviews and is constantly compared to Savage, for the money as a first gun it was really tough to beat. I would look it up.
For rings I dont know what I have which kinda pisses me off actually. I bought it at Bass Pro and while I was doing the paper work they went over and opened rings and bases and installed them for me. I wanted to pick out what I wanted but kinda got denied the chance.
All around "nice enough" combo for my first gun. I have not shot it enough to figure the MOA @ 100 yds yet. I need to find someone close by with a nice bench rest and bags to take me, the shooter, out of the equation as much as possible.
I've still got much to learn but hopefully that helped!
So my limited experience but extensive research lead me to buy a .270 win. I didn't want anything bigger because honestly I doubt pretty highly I will ever get the opportunity to shoot anything bigger. I don't plan to go on any Water buffalo expeditions or anything like that. I bought a Mossberg ATR 100 chambered in .270 Win with a 3x9x40 Nikon Prostaff with the BDC reticle. I shoot Winchester Premium ballistic tips either 135 gr or 130 gr cant remember and these should be good for any white tail in the state. I also have put some Rem Core Lokt 150 gr through it and both run cleanly without incident and on target. The gun got good reviews and is constantly compared to Savage, for the money as a first gun it was really tough to beat. I would look it up.
For rings I dont know what I have which kinda pisses me off actually. I bought it at Bass Pro and while I was doing the paper work they went over and opened rings and bases and installed them for me. I wanted to pick out what I wanted but kinda got denied the chance.
All around "nice enough" combo for my first gun. I have not shot it enough to figure the MOA @ 100 yds yet. I need to find someone close by with a nice bench rest and bags to take me, the shooter, out of the equation as much as possible.
I've still got much to learn but hopefully that helped!
Wise words, those, too. In my understanding, quite a few ol boys take african plains game with .270, .280, and .30-06 as well, up to and including Eland.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, provided they used Leupold "standard" style rings, then it wouldn't have mattered - nothing they carry there is anywhere near as good as the Leupold, and almost all of it is junk, junk, junk. Except standard Weaver brand Weaver-base rings, and those Leupolds.
Rings is one of those things which now, with the demise of S.W., you *must* buy online, if you don't want junk, and if you're not going to use Leupold "standard" rings (dovetail front, adj. rear). Unless you're willing to drive to OKC and pay pretty big for Leupold PRW / QRWs. Other than the Leupold "standard" style (or double-dovetail), and the steel Weavers at BP, and the QRW / PRW Leupolds at H&H, in OKC area, you can NOT get good rings period, from Academy, BP, OAS, H&H, etc. Big time suckage - one of my huge pet peeves. The only possible exception are the aluminum Leupold "Rifleman" rings from Academy - but I'd only use them for a rimfire. I'd say they're only semi-junky.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, provided they used Leupold "standard" style rings, then it wouldn't have mattered - nothing they carry there is anywhere near as good as the Leupold, and almost all of it is junk, junk, junk. Except standard Weaver brand Weaver-base rings, and those Leupolds.
Rings is one of those things which now, with the demise of S.W., you *must* buy online, if you don't want junk, and if you're not going to use Leupold "standard" rings (dovetail front, adj. rear). Unless you're willing to drive to OKC and pay pretty big for Leupold PRW / QRWs. Other than the Leupold "standard" style (or double-dovetail), and the steel Weavers at BP, and the QRW / PRW Leupolds at H&H, in OKC area, you can NOT get good rings period, from Academy, BP, OAS, H&H, etc. Big time suckage - one of my huge pet peeves. The only possible exception are the aluminum Leupold "Rifleman" rings from Academy - but I'd only use them for a rimfire. I'd say they're only semi-junky.
My kind of thread. I'm gonna assume that you want to be ready for anything in North America, including Bison, Yak, Moose, and Brown Bear. I'm also gonna assume that you very well might take up reloading, if you don't already. Next, take what I say with a grain of salt - yes I have read a lot and hunted quite a bit, but I'm far from an expert hunter. Finally, of course, we live and learn. My views 10 years from now will likely change, just as they've changed a bit in the last 10 years. The more time that goes by, the more I'm leaning toward lighter, shorter, and less recoiling.
First, action type: Seems you've settled on a turnbolt - excellent choice, and would be my recommendation as well, for a variety of reasons.
Next, chambering - my recommendations, in order of preference:
1. .280 Rem
2. .270 Win
3. .30-06 spfld
4. 7mm-08 Rem or 7x57 mauser
5. 6.5x55 Swede
6. .260 Rem
7. .308 Win
8. 7mm Rem Mag
9. .338 Federal
10. .30-30 Win
11. .338-'06 A-square
12. .35 Whelen or 9.3x62mm
13. 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC
14. 7.62x39mm
15. All others, including any .300 maggie or .338 maggie
#3 Yes I can still handle this round, as long as its in my M1 Garand or SC03A3 due to their weight. Recoil is an issue for me now.
#4 7X57 in my Ruger #1 RSI is the sweet spot. From 140gr to 175gr, she'll handle anything that needs shooting, plus I'll keep the range short, no hail mary's.
I keep my fingers crossed that Ruger will one day make their 77 in 7X57 left handed.
My vote is for a Tikka T3 Lite or Hunter in a .270 with a Nikon Buckmaster in either a 4-12x50mm or 3-9x40mm if you want to stick with the factory supplied rings (that is what I have and haven't noticed any movement yet although they do look weak). Bud's Gun shop has the tikka lite for $525 and the 50mm Nikon for $300, a little less for the 40mm.
I have two .270's and they both shoot very well, under 1 MOA with almost all the ammo out there. I use federal game shock 130gr ($14/20 at Wally world) until I get some time at the range to test some handloads courtesy of a much more experienced marksmans than myself.
The most recent of my .270's was a Tikka T3 lite in stainless, only Tikka version available for a lefty, that I received a couple of weeks ago as an early Christmas present from my wife.
Finally got to take it out today for the first time to shoot it. Action is as smooth as silk, trigger takes no effort, and recoil was very tolerable. Everthing is great except the synthetic stock really doesn't do anything for me. T3 Hunter would be great but not available for a lefty.
I have two .270's and they both shoot very well, under 1 MOA with almost all the ammo out there. I use federal game shock 130gr ($14/20 at Wally world) until I get some time at the range to test some handloads courtesy of a much more experienced marksmans than myself.
The most recent of my .270's was a Tikka T3 lite in stainless, only Tikka version available for a lefty, that I received a couple of weeks ago as an early Christmas present from my wife.
Finally got to take it out today for the first time to shoot it. Action is as smooth as silk, trigger takes no effort, and recoil was very tolerable. Everthing is great except the synthetic stock really doesn't do anything for me. T3 Hunter would be great but not available for a lefty.
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