conflicted.... Card #31

[SomeCallMeMom]

Even surgeons consult each other from time to time about the best way to do a procedure. I think if the card said "he has medical expertise, but has never performed this particular procedure before" then it would make me feel a little easier about the whole thing. I believe the most humane thing to do is end the suffering of the first person, let them practice on the cadaver, then go ahead & perform the surgery on the second person only if this person with medical expertise is no longer "confused".

I do agree with BB though that if they really don't know what the hell they are doing, there is no way I'm handing them surgical equipment.

 

[TedKennedy]

Why hasn't the "friend" been practicing? Seems there were opportunities with card 30, 29, 26 and especially #21. (just to name a few)

 

[sklfco]

Then practice surgery on the cadaver.

Yes yes yes......exactly. AND have more than 1 person in on the "training". Would be an excellent time to get a little practice setting bones, extracting teeth ect.... If you could stomach the process there would be valuable information gleaned from showing members of the group exactly how a human is constructed on the inside and how best to make one cease function should the need arise. Yes that is far out on the morbid limb but we are looking at this from a grid down event where survival has top priority. After all that, a proper burial as best that could be managed for the first person should be conducted with the utmost of respect.

 

[Lurker66]

I'd argue to ease suffering of first guy n either do your best on 2nd guy or.....ease his suffering as well. SHTF means you either try or do it....there is no room for practice surgery.

 

[tRidiot]

Hey, you guys do realize that medical pros often look up procedures to refresh their memory before going into it, right? Maybe not something you do every day, but if a surgeon only does 2-3 cases of something a year, I don't have a problem with him pulling down a book (lol, if you know much about surgeon humor, you understand why this is funny) and refreshing his memory. Hell, you can find all kind of sheisse on YouTube these days... and some of it's pretty frigging helpful.


This brings up an interesting point, though... in a "grid down" scenario, sometimes the only doc you have around and may be able to rely on for years to come is an old vet assistant, or a nurse who worked in someone's office, etc. The scenario above says that patient #2 is at great risk of dying. Doesn't sound like an optional scenario to me. Nor an optimal scenario... but... well, it sucks. But what's your option? Personally, I think no matter the injury or illness, any kind of surgery done without access to significant amounts of IV fluids and IV antibiotics, no matter how clean you make things, has to be assumed to be a losing proposition, and if someone survives, well, then that's a bonus. And in a grid-down situation, IV antibiotics are going to be either used up, lost, wasted or gone bad long before we run into many chances to use them, I think. Sadly.


You wanna make yourself invaluable in the apocalypse? Study chemistry and manufacturing of pharmaceuticals and you'll be the richest, most-protected and in-demand person in any given area for years to come.




<edit> I've heard nurses making fun of docs looking up procedures on YouTube, but I've used it many times, and I usually try to defend them when I hear it. People have no idea how stressful it is for everyone to assume you're infallible and can do all things all the time. Or an easier analogy is, "Hey, how's the view from up there in the cheap seats?" Usually met with crickets.... lol.

 

[SomeCallMeMom]

Hey, you guys do realize that medical pros often look up procedures to refresh their memory before going into it, right? Maybe not something you do every day, but if a surgeon only does 2-3 cases of something a year, I don't have a problem with him pulling down a book (lol, if you know much about surgeon humor, you understand why this is funny) and refreshing his memory. Hell, you can find all kind of sheisse on YouTube these days... and some of it's pretty frigging helpful.


This brings up an interesting point, though... in a "grid down" scenario, sometimes the only doc you have around and may be able to rely on for years to come is an old vet assistant, or a nurse who worked in someone's office, etc. The scenario above says that patient #2 is at great risk of dying. Doesn't sound like an optional scenario to me. Nor an optimal scenario... but... well, it sucks. But what's your option? Personally, I think no matter the injury or illness, any kind of surgery done without access to significant amounts of IV fluids and IV antibiotics, no matter how clean you make things, has to be assumed to be a losing proposition, and if someone survives, well, then that's a bonus. And in a grid-down situation, IV antibiotics are going to be either used up, lost, wasted or gone bad long before we run into many chances to use them, I think. Sadly.


You wanna make yourself invaluable in the apocalypse? Study chemistry and manufacturing of pharmaceuticals and you'll be the richest, most-protected and in-demand person in any given area for years to come.




<edit> I've heard nurses making fun of docs looking up procedures on YouTube, but I've used it many times, and I usually try to defend them when I hear it. People have no idea how stressful it is for everyone to assume you're infallible and can do all things all the time. Or an easier analogy is, "Hey, how's the view from up there in the cheap seats?" Usually met with crickets.... lol.

Yup! Having worked many years assisting veterinarians, we've done many field surgeries with no sterile area except the one you make. Even then, you've got the wind blowing dirt & everything else into it.

 

[Johnjosiah]

If I'm the dying dude then practice away. If I'm the dude needing surgery then practice away as well. Even if dude 2 dies he has still given the "doc" another practice surgeries. Medical training may just mean that he is a doc but not a surgeon. Furthermore, surgery can have a very broad definition. Anything from a splinter removal to a valve replacement could be considered surgery. This just doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Go for it seems there is minimal to loose in this scenario.

 

[BadgeBunny]

Yup! Having worked many years assisting veterinarians, we've done many field surgeries with no sterile area except the one you make. Even then, you've got the wind blowing dirt & everything else into it.

OMG your post reminded me of a time I was helping my dad with a C-section out in the middle of a pasture ... next to a chicken farm ... on a cold, windy day ... my job was to keep the blowing chicken feathers picked out of the "sterile surgical field" ...

Believe it or not, that cow survived ... but I remember my dad telling the rancher that if the crap from the chicken farm didn't kill her the quadruple dose of antibiotics probably would.

Man ... what a childhood ... yeah ... I was in the second grade when that happened ...

 

[SomeCallMeMom]

Haha! yep... My mom woke me up when I was maybe 6 or 7 & told me she swore the goat had twins. Her hand was too big to palpate, so she told me to stick my hand up there to "feel around & see if I felt anything". I stuck my hand up that poor goat & told her "yeah, a uterus" & went back to bed. Poor Popcorn...

 

[ratski]

This does NOT compute ... My friend has medical expertise but is confused by a few steps ...

Sorry to be a Debby Downer guys, but surgery is NOT something just anybody with a CNA from Platt College is gonna be able to do.

I maintain that if someone "is confused by a few steps" they have absolutely NO BUSINESS performing anything that even remotely resembles surgery. To allow them to do so will cause much, much more suffering before the inevitable. There are some things worse than death. One of them is death after suffering from the massive damage and infection caused by someone "doing surgery" who has no clue what they are doing.

Got to disagree with you on this one.

Any surgeon that doesn't "get confused by a couple of steps" on some procedures is lying to you.

Surgery is not a straight line process. There is no "Start here-do this-end up here" formula.

All of us have to learn and practice sometime.

It has been years since I've done a facial reconstruction, IV cutdown or tied off a bleeding artery, but I'd be willing to be that the second guy would be more than willing to have me "try" than to give up and die.

And if practicing on the cadaver of the first guy is going to help me try to save the second guy/girl then have at it.

In the situation described, we would be the "first" surgeons.

Dave