Dadgum Methodists

[HillsideDesolate]

Times are a changin'. Next thing you know someone is going to say tithing should be based on net income instead of gross.

The New Testament never specified a percentage.

Traditionally The Church (Catholic/Orthodox) supported itself. The clergy, being educated, was tasked with making and selling things that were beyond the abilities of common people. Items like perfumes, beeswax candles, incense, soap, beer, wine and liquors, basically Chem 101. Many liquor brands today are still made by Catholic Monks such as Chartreuse and Benedictine. There are also the famous Trappist beers made by monks across Europe. Also IIRC the Catholic church also owns a large share of Beretta, but the Vatican Armory prefers SIG

 

[cmc tom]

"I'd rather be in the mountains thinking about God, then sitting in church thinking about the mountains "

 

[HillsideDesolate]

"I'd rather be in the mountains thinking about God, then sitting in church thinking about the mountains "

Moses found God on a mountain.

St. Patrick had his epiphany while alone as a shepard in the mountains.

St. Seraphim or Sarov lived in the wilderness and his best friend was a bear.

They were all closer to God then anyone I've met at church.

 

[Rez Exelon]

There's a church on every corner. If you don't agree with the one you are attending, just find another.

It's called voting with your feet. It ain't that hard.

Believe me, if the money dries up the church will change.

That's what's great about Christianity. Sure, there's One God and One Word, but thankfully man sliced and diced it to where there's a little religion for everyone. I mean sure they can all be right can't they? Just like every other religion in the world.

 

[JuanGrande62221]

Our local church is going through an upheaval thanks to the latest things being ignored and accepted by some of the Bishops. Just wondering if any of you all’s churches are having the same issues.

In some parts of the county they bishops are just doing whatever they want because there is no way to remove them. They aren’t following the book of discipline, which all UMCs are supposed to follow and have all voted on (and can be changed by vote, but the last vote declined to change anything). Some don’t agree with the majority and want to move more of the left. I don’t necessarily have an issue with that as long as that’s the majority’s will, but it’s not. It’s a major issue to me when they don’t follow the book of discipline as they’ve sworn. Last I knew in Oklahoma there were 29 UMCs that have disaffiliated with the UMC, and I think 27 of those have became part of the Global Methodist. For the most part it’s the same as the traditional UMC, book of discipline and all, other than bishops can be removed, are limited to 7 years, and each church owns its own property (not held in trust by UMC). Their book of discipline says the same as the current UMC- no homosexual or trans weddings or clergy, but everyone is welcome to attend and are children of God. There will be more leaving UMC in the next year or so. Mine will start the process after the first of the year and probably hold a vote. I suspect 80% or more will vote to disaffiliate.

 

[streak]

It's not just as simple as a local UMC saying we are no longer going to accept your new rules and walking away. Even though our congregation built and paid for the church, it became the property of the UMC mothership. If we vote to leave the UMC we would have to buy the building back from the UMC plus a severance fee that covers the pastor's and maybe the secretary's retirement fund for 5 or 7 years, I can't remember for sure. Our church is small and we do not have the reserves to buy the building and pay the fees. The only way we could afford to do it is take out a loan against the building to buy the building. But is kind of a catch 22. What bank would loan us the money using a property that we currently don't own to buy the building which would be the collateral for the loan.

Of course we could just walk away and give the building back, but finding a suitable replacement would be difficult designing and building a new facility let alone paying the mortgage.

The membership has to vote on whether to stay under the new rules or leave and pay the fees. The other convoluted situation is the UMC won't tell you ahead of time what the total severance price will be until after you vote to leave so it is very difficult to decide whether we could afford to do so or not. We can only guesstimate the cost based upon what similar sized churches have paid already to leave. I'm not even sure which way our membership would vote at this point.

That’s exactly where we are at. The plus side is since we are a small church and basically only received preacher appointments our price to get out and keep our building isn’t as bad as it could have been. Still hurts to have to pay for the building again.

Almost reminds me of an old joke dad used to tell: you know why divorces cost so much; cause they are worth it

 

[streak]

The other bizarre situation is that it won't be until the global UMC conference at the end of 2024 gathers to vote to accept the new woke agenda or stay with the traditional rules. However any church deciding it wishes to leave the UMC must vote to do so by Dec. 2023. So you don't know for sure which doctrine you are leaving. You may have paid all the costs to leave only to find out they vote to stay traditional. It was originally believed that the conservative members would vote to remain traditional. Most of the other countries have very conservative beliefs. However over the last year or so the liberals have gained the upper hand. The rich liberal leaning countries have pressured the poorer conservative countries to vote to accept the new doctrine or risk loosing needed money doled out buy the mothership to keep them afloat. It is now expected the conference will vote to accept the woke rules.

The current proposal and prelim vote ( the one that starts the process to get a price) for us was all about the failure of the bishops and DS’s to follow their own rules of discipline

 

[streak]

In some parts of the county they bishops are just doing whatever they want because there is no way to remove them. They aren’t following the book of discipline, which all UMCs are supposed to follow and have all voted on (and can be changed by vote, but the last vote declined to change anything). Some don’t agree with the majority and want to move more of the left. I don’t necessarily have an issue with that as long as that’s the majority’s will, but it’s not. It’s a major issue to me when they don’t follow the book of discipline as they’ve sworn. Last I knew in Oklahoma there were 29 UMCs that have disaffiliated with the UMC, and I think 27 of those have became part of the Global Methodist. For the most part it’s the same as the traditional UMC, book of discipline and all, other than bishops can be removed, are limited to 7 years, and each church owns its own property (not held in trust by UMC). Their book of discipline says the same as the current UMC- no homosexual or trans weddings or clergy, but everyone is welcome to attend and are children of God. There will be more leaving UMC in the next year or so. Mine will start the process after the first of the year and probably hold a vote. I suspect 80% or more will vote to disaffiliate.

This is exactly where we are at, the District Superintendant won’t meet with us until the 1st of the year to move to the next step

 

[streak]

Your ideas have been tossed around in informal discussions amongst some members. We are really in a holding pattern right now until we start trying to get a serious headcount as to how the members would vote. One of my friends that has been a member since wayback thinks it would be close. Oddly most of the younger members with families have already left the church because our previous pastor was liberal leaning on the gay thing as one of his sisters is gay. They did not want their children being taught in those beliefs. They would be lost conservative votes. Most of us olders just let it slide and believed what we wanted. We have since gotten a new pastor that much more conservative, but the young members have already established new connections at new churches and have not returned.

Be aware, when it comes to the vote, anyone registered as a member has to be notified and gets a vote. That also includes any past clergy. And dissaffiliation has to pad by 66.7%

 

[streak]

Just out of curiosity, do any of y'all attend the El Reno UMC? That's where our previous pastor got promoted to.

Ummmm. Which el reno UMC? Wesley, Mt Zion, or Ellison Ave?