The real question here is.....Why don't Americans do this kind of stuff?
So when you said,
"Because if we keep asserting American exceptionalism and engage in overt nation building in places where we're not welcome, we end up with events like what occurred 11 years ago today."
you were not implying that our assertion of American exceptionalism and overt nation building prior to 9/11 was the reason we were attacked? Ok, Then how can you assert that another 9/11 could happen as a result of those actions?
Stick around here a bit, and you're see that many here think it actually, literally was our doing.
I don't think it's our fault, but I think we frequently give people reasons to dislike us. Think on a more micro level, like a self defense scenario. First, you avoid dangerous situations. Secondly, you mitigate your risk if you have to go places that could be dangerous (i.e. you go during daylight hours). Thirdly, you try to deescalate conflict if it begins to occurs (if you bump shoulders in passing with someone, you can politely apologize rather than swearing at them). But if you immediately threatened, you engage and you finish.
Our diplomatic mission is to put as many fingers as we can into as many pots as we can, do it at times where the countries are very volatile, with a rhetoric and bravado that is insulting and provoking to other nations, and then we don't finish the job when attacked but rather we drag out the conflict to become some convoluted affair with no clear goal and no exit strategy.
The US Foreign Policy is like a macro-level example of all those self defense fail scenarios we're all so critical of here on the forum.
Well sir I didn't write that, to me he is saying the bullying of other countries, killing of innocents like in Pakistan, grow American haters, willing to kill themselves and others because they hate America
Anti-Islam film sparks Libya, Egypt protests
CAIRO (AP) A movie attacking Islam's prophet Muhammad sparked assaults on U.S. diplomatic missions in Libya and Egypt on Tuesday. A Libyan security official reported an American was shot to death as protesters burned the U.S. consulate in Benghazi, and in Cairo, protesters scaled the walls of the U.S. embassy walls and replaced an American flag with an Islamic banner.
It was the first such assaults on U.S. diplomatic facilities in either country, at a time when both Libya and Egypt are struggling to overcome the turmoil following the ouster of their longtime leaders, Moammar Gadhafi and Hosni Mubarak in uprisings last year.
The protests in both countries were sparked by outrage over a film ridiculing Muhammad produced by an American in California and being promoted by an extreme anti-Muslim Egyptian Christian campaigner in the United States.
In the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi, a large mob stormed the U.S. Consulate, with gunmen firing their weapons, said Wanis al-Sharef, an Interior Ministry official in Benghazi. A witness said attackers fired automatic weapons and rocket-propelled grenades at the consulate as they clashed with Libyans hired to guard the facility.
Outnumbered by the crowd, Libyan security forces did little to stop them, al-Sharef said.
The crowd overwhelmed the facility and set fire to it, burning most of it and looting the contents, witnesses said.
One American was shot to death and a second was wounded in the hand, al-Sharef said. He did not give further details, and there was no immediate U.S. confirmation of the death.
Hours before the Benghazi attack, hundreds of mainly ultraconservative Islamist protesters in Egypt marched to the U.S. Embassy in downtown Cairo, gathering outside its walls and chanting against the movie and the U.S. Most of the embassy staff had left the compound earlier because of warnings of the upcoming demonstration.
"Say it, don't fear: Their ambassador must leave," the crowd chanted.
Dozens of protesters then scaled the embassy walls, and several went into the courtyard and took down the American flag from a pole. They brought it back to the crowd outside, which tried to burn it, but failing that tore it apart.
The protesters on the wall then raised on the flagpole a black flag with a Muslim declaration of faith, "There is no god but God and Muhammad is his prophet." The flag, similar to the banner used by al-Qaida, is commonly used by ultraconservatives around the region.
The crowd grew throughout the evening with thousands standing outside the embassy. Dozens of riot police lined up along the embassy walls but did not stop protesters as they continued to climb and stand on the wall - though it appeared no more went into the compound.
The crowd chanted, "Islamic, Islamic. The right of our prophet will not die." Some shouted, "We are all Osama," referring to al-Qaida leader bin Laden. Young men, some in masks, sprayed graffiti on the walls. Some grumbled that Islamist President Mohammed Morsi had not spoken out about the movie.
A group of women in black veils and robes that left only their eyes exposed chanted, "Worshippers of the Cross, leave the Prophet Muhammad alone."
By midnight, the crowd had dwindled. The U.S. Embassy said on its Twitter account that there will be no visa services on Wednesday because of the protests.
A senior Egyptian security official at the embassy area said authorities allowed the protest because it was "peaceful." When they started climbing the walls, he said he called for more troops, denying that the protesters stormed the embassy. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to reporters.
The Cairo embassy is in a diplomatic area in Garden City, where the British and Italian embassies are located, only a few blocks away from Tahrir Square, the center of last year's uprising that led to the ouster of Hosni Mubarak. The U.S. Embassy is built like a fortress, with a wall several meters (yards) high. But security has been scaled back in recent months, with several roadblocks leading to the facility removed after legal court cases by residents.
The Egyptian Foreign Ministry promised in a statement to provide the necessary security for diplomatic missions and embassies and warned that "such incidents will negatively impact the image of stability in Egypt, which will have consequences on the life of its citizens."
One protester, Hossam Ahmed, said he was among those who entered the embassy compound and replaced the American flag with the black one. He said the group has now removed the black flag from the pole and laid it instead on a ladder on top of the wall.
"This is a very simple reaction to harming our prophet," said another, bearded young protester, Abdel-Hamid Ibrahim.
In Washington, State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said Egyptian police had removed the demonstrators who entered the embassy grounds. Speaking before reports of the slain American emerged, she condemned the attack on the consulate in Libya "in the strongest terms."
Muslims find it offensive to depict Muhammad in any fashion, much less in an insulting way. The 2005 publication of 12 caricatures of the prophet Muhammad in a Danish newspaper triggered riots in many Muslim countries.
A 14-minute trailer of the movie that sparked the protests, posted on the website YouTube in an original English version and another dubbed into Egyptian Arabic, depicts Muhammad as a fraud, a womanizer and a madman in an overtly ridiculing way, showing him having sex and calling for massacres.
A YouTube spokesman said the website would not take down the video at this point. The spokesman said the website's policy is to remove videos that include a threat of violence, but not those only expressing opinions.
"We take great care when we enforce our policies and try to allow as much content as possible while ensuring that our Community Guidelines are followed," the YouTube representative said. "Flagged content that does not violate our Guidelines will remain on the site."
Sam Bacile, an American citizen who said he produced, directed and wrote the two-hour film, said he had not anticipated such a furious reaction.
"I feel sorry for the embassy. I am mad," Bacile said.
Speaking from a telephone with a California number, Bacile said he is Jewish and familiar with the region. Bacile said the film was produced in English and he doesn't know who dubbed it in Arabic. The full film has not been shown yet, he said, and he said he has declined distribution offers for now.
"My plan is to make a series of 200 hours" about the same subject, he said.
Morris Sadek, an Egyptian-born Christian in the U.S. known for his anti-Islam views, told The Associated Press from Washington that he was promoting the video on his website and on certain TV stations, which he did not identify.
Both depicted the film as showing how Coptic Christians are oppressed in Egypt, though it goes well beyond that to ridicule Muhammad - a reflection of their contention that Islam as a religion is inherently oppressive.
"The main problem is I am the first one to put on the screen someone who is (portraying) Muhammad. It makes them mad," Bacile said. "But we have to open the door. After 9/11 everybody should be in front of the judge, even Jesus, even Muhammad."
For several days, Egyptian media have been reporting on the video, playing some excerpts from it and blaming Sadek for it, with ultraconservative clerics going on air to denounce it.
Medhat Klada, a representative of Coptic Christian organizations in Europe, said Sadek's views are not representative of expatriate Copts.
"He is an extremist ... We don't go down this road. He has incited the people (in Egypt) against Copts," he said, speaking from Switzerland. "We refuse any attacks on religions because of a moral position."
But he said he was concerned about the backlash from angry Islamists, saying their protest only promotes the movie. "They don't know dialogue and they think that Islam will be offended from a movie."
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...00ed61c62534a0
Today is the anniversary of the 911 attacks.
All way around.
CAIRO (AP) A movie attacking Islam's prophet Muhammad sparked assaults on U.S. diplomatic missions in Libya and Egypt on Tuesday. A Libyan security official reported an American was shot to death as protesters burned the U.S. consulate in Benghazi, and in Cairo, protesters scaled the walls of the U.S. embassy walls and replaced an American flag with an Islamic banner.
It was the first such assaults on U.S. diplomatic facilities in either country, at a time when both Libya and Egypt are struggling to overcome the turmoil following the ouster of their longtime leaders, Moammar Gadhafi and Hosni Mubarak in uprisings last year.
The protests in both countries were sparked by outrage over a film ridiculing Muhammad produced by an American in California and being promoted by an extreme anti-Muslim Egyptian Christian campaigner in the United States.
In the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi, a large mob stormed the U.S. Consulate, with gunmen firing their weapons, said Wanis al-Sharef, an Interior Ministry official in Benghazi. A witness said attackers fired automatic weapons and rocket-propelled grenades at the consulate as they clashed with Libyans hired to guard the facility.
Outnumbered by the crowd, Libyan security forces did little to stop them, al-Sharef said.
The crowd overwhelmed the facility and set fire to it, burning most of it and looting the contents, witnesses said.
One American was shot to death and a second was wounded in the hand, al-Sharef said. He did not give further details, and there was no immediate U.S. confirmation of the death.
Hours before the Benghazi attack, hundreds of mainly ultraconservative Islamist protesters in Egypt marched to the U.S. Embassy in downtown Cairo, gathering outside its walls and chanting against the movie and the U.S. Most of the embassy staff had left the compound earlier because of warnings of the upcoming demonstration.
"Say it, don't fear: Their ambassador must leave," the crowd chanted.
Dozens of protesters then scaled the embassy walls, and several went into the courtyard and took down the American flag from a pole. They brought it back to the crowd outside, which tried to burn it, but failing that tore it apart.
The protesters on the wall then raised on the flagpole a black flag with a Muslim declaration of faith, "There is no god but God and Muhammad is his prophet." The flag, similar to the banner used by al-Qaida, is commonly used by ultraconservatives around the region.
The crowd grew throughout the evening with thousands standing outside the embassy. Dozens of riot police lined up along the embassy walls but did not stop protesters as they continued to climb and stand on the wall - though it appeared no more went into the compound.
The crowd chanted, "Islamic, Islamic. The right of our prophet will not die." Some shouted, "We are all Osama," referring to al-Qaida leader bin Laden. Young men, some in masks, sprayed graffiti on the walls. Some grumbled that Islamist President Mohammed Morsi had not spoken out about the movie.
A group of women in black veils and robes that left only their eyes exposed chanted, "Worshippers of the Cross, leave the Prophet Muhammad alone."
By midnight, the crowd had dwindled. The U.S. Embassy said on its Twitter account that there will be no visa services on Wednesday because of the protests.
A senior Egyptian security official at the embassy area said authorities allowed the protest because it was "peaceful." When they started climbing the walls, he said he called for more troops, denying that the protesters stormed the embassy. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to reporters.
The Cairo embassy is in a diplomatic area in Garden City, where the British and Italian embassies are located, only a few blocks away from Tahrir Square, the center of last year's uprising that led to the ouster of Hosni Mubarak. The U.S. Embassy is built like a fortress, with a wall several meters (yards) high. But security has been scaled back in recent months, with several roadblocks leading to the facility removed after legal court cases by residents.
The Egyptian Foreign Ministry promised in a statement to provide the necessary security for diplomatic missions and embassies and warned that "such incidents will negatively impact the image of stability in Egypt, which will have consequences on the life of its citizens."
One protester, Hossam Ahmed, said he was among those who entered the embassy compound and replaced the American flag with the black one. He said the group has now removed the black flag from the pole and laid it instead on a ladder on top of the wall.
"This is a very simple reaction to harming our prophet," said another, bearded young protester, Abdel-Hamid Ibrahim.
In Washington, State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said Egyptian police had removed the demonstrators who entered the embassy grounds. Speaking before reports of the slain American emerged, she condemned the attack on the consulate in Libya "in the strongest terms."
Muslims find it offensive to depict Muhammad in any fashion, much less in an insulting way. The 2005 publication of 12 caricatures of the prophet Muhammad in a Danish newspaper triggered riots in many Muslim countries.
A 14-minute trailer of the movie that sparked the protests, posted on the website YouTube in an original English version and another dubbed into Egyptian Arabic, depicts Muhammad as a fraud, a womanizer and a madman in an overtly ridiculing way, showing him having sex and calling for massacres.
A YouTube spokesman said the website would not take down the video at this point. The spokesman said the website's policy is to remove videos that include a threat of violence, but not those only expressing opinions.
"We take great care when we enforce our policies and try to allow as much content as possible while ensuring that our Community Guidelines are followed," the YouTube representative said. "Flagged content that does not violate our Guidelines will remain on the site."
Sam Bacile, an American citizen who said he produced, directed and wrote the two-hour film, said he had not anticipated such a furious reaction.
"I feel sorry for the embassy. I am mad," Bacile said.
Speaking from a telephone with a California number, Bacile said he is Jewish and familiar with the region. Bacile said the film was produced in English and he doesn't know who dubbed it in Arabic. The full film has not been shown yet, he said, and he said he has declined distribution offers for now.
"My plan is to make a series of 200 hours" about the same subject, he said.
Morris Sadek, an Egyptian-born Christian in the U.S. known for his anti-Islam views, told The Associated Press from Washington that he was promoting the video on his website and on certain TV stations, which he did not identify.
Both depicted the film as showing how Coptic Christians are oppressed in Egypt, though it goes well beyond that to ridicule Muhammad - a reflection of their contention that Islam as a religion is inherently oppressive.
"The main problem is I am the first one to put on the screen someone who is (portraying) Muhammad. It makes them mad," Bacile said. "But we have to open the door. After 9/11 everybody should be in front of the judge, even Jesus, even Muhammad."
For several days, Egyptian media have been reporting on the video, playing some excerpts from it and blaming Sadek for it, with ultraconservative clerics going on air to denounce it.
Medhat Klada, a representative of Coptic Christian organizations in Europe, said Sadek's views are not representative of expatriate Copts.
"He is an extremist ... We don't go down this road. He has incited the people (in Egypt) against Copts," he said, speaking from Switzerland. "We refuse any attacks on religions because of a moral position."
But he said he was concerned about the backlash from angry Islamists, saying their protest only promotes the movie. "They don't know dialogue and they think that Islam will be offended from a movie."
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...00ed61c62534a0
Today is the anniversary of the 911 attacks.
All way around.You're not too far off from what I meant. From the Iran/Iraq war, to the USSR/Afghanistan conflict.
Hell, they bombed our embassy in Beirut in 1983 because we opposed Iran. It's been almost 30 years and I'm not sure we're any better off.
what were the "warning shots" a warning for? More warning shots? It's like UN sanctions. If you break them we issue new sanctions and if you break those....
Warning shots are only warning shots if you make good on what you are warning of.
Warning shots are only warning shots if you make good on what you are warning of.
1. I dont understand the first sentence.
2. Lots of people dislike us sure, some of them have valid reasons. Your analogy makes no sense at all to me, please explain.
3. Your synopsis of our "diplomatic mission"; likewise, makes zero sense to me. if our mission is to stick our fingers into a pot when the situation is volatile, while simultaneously insulting that pot, ( nation ), in order to provoke and insult them and then further that problem by not finishing some job when we are attacked so that....
I would really like to understand you
Everyone has been trolled.
The Egyptians and the Libyans have been trolled, and now Americans are being trolled.
The producers of that film knew it would be incendiary and they released a trailer in conjunction with the 911 anniversary and posted it on youtube to make money.
Don't you all want to go see that film now???
The Egyptians and the Libyans have been trolled, and now Americans are being trolled.
The producers of that film knew it would be incendiary and they released a trailer in conjunction with the 911 anniversary and posted it on youtube to make money.
Don't you all want to go see that film now???
And that is very true. This stuff happens in war as I am sure you are aware. ( I am making an assumption based on the MOS identifier in your handle). War sucks and sometimes the wrong people get hurt or killed. Lives are destroyed and seeds of resentment are sown. This is reality, and unfortunately for the civilized world the planet is still ruled by the aggressive use of force.
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