Generator question

[okietom]

Funny, I wondered about the same thing a year or two ago and ran across this:

Honda Engines FAQ


I might use synthetic in Honda lawn mowers and such, but for something as critical (and finicky) as a generator I'll stick with what it was designed to use - and maintain it (including oil changes) as recommended in the manual. Of course, that's just me.

This says to go by the standards that is in the manual. If you check the standards in the manual and the synthetic oil meets those standards you are good to go. The motor was designed to an oil standard and not a specific type of oil. Most oils you find on the shelf at Walmart or any parts store will meet the standards of most engines.

 

[TerryMiller]

Well, I'm an old "Fuddy-Duddy" when it comes to this sort of thing. I've long had the philosophy that oil changes is one of the cheapest forms of maintenance, specifically preventative type, so I still can't make myself adhere to the manual's 7500 mile oil change recommendation on my vehicles. By that line of thinking, I would ask this question, especially if it came to a factor of warranty, "Which would be cheaper in the long run; running the manufacturer's recommended oil or repairing or replacing an engine?"

As for the refinery oil as Dennishoddy mentioned, the oil is the exact same "stock" oil, but each different brand might have different additives added to it. It was certainly that way when I worked in the fuel/oil business. Even #2 diesel is the same until the additives go in.

 

[dennishoddy]

As for the refinery oil as Dennishoddy mentioned, the oil is the exact same "stock" oil, but each different brand might have different additives added to it. It was certainly that way when I worked in the fuel/oil business. Even #2 diesel is the same until the additives go in.

Nope. The blenders never changed the formula. The buyers accepted the fact that it exceeded the auto makers recommendations, and we slapped a label on it.

That's not an isolated incident BTW.

 

[Shadowrider]

Nope. The blenders never changed the formula. The buyers accepted the fact that it exceeded the auto makers recommendations, and we slapped a label on it.

That's not an isolated incident BTW.

That's easily explained. The blenders were blending to a specification minimum which is just about what all of them do. Meaning that when they say it meets API specs it really does...when you pour it out of the bottle. But 15 minutes of run time in the engine and it might be a different story. The API specs have gotten better over the years and staying in spec after a set interval of actual usage in an engine is one facet. That's somewhat recent in the last few years too.

But Terry Miller is really correct in regards to base stocks that they all use. They are set specific types and all the oil companies start with these so they are starting with the same stuff. They are classified as Groups 1 through 5 with 1 & 2 being conventionally refined dino, Group 3 being hydro cracked dino and commonly called synthetic but not even close in reality, Group 4 being polyalphaolefin and Group 5 being esthers which are mega bucks expensive and usually only used as an additive. Each step up costs more money to produce. A lot of crude won't even make Group 3 these days. Where it gets different among the companies is the additive package that they add to those base stocks. Everyone has their own "recipe" and it varies greatly while the end product end up being about identical overall. They all just "blend up" to just barely meet the API specs. This is where Amsoil has utterly trounced all the others over the years. They have always went far, far above the specs with their additive packages and that's where the most cost to manufacture it is at. Back in the '70s and '80s do you remember the Mobil 1 commercials on TV where they put regular oil and their synthetic oil in a skillet and heated it up? The regular oil was reduced to sludge while the Mobil 1 would still pour out. That was actually a great representation of the difference between dino and synthetic. Back then Mobil 1 was real synthetic but our wonderful .gov changed the game and now the regular Mobil 1 line isn't real synthetic at all, it's made from group 3 base stocks. The Extended Performance is since it's blended from Group 4 stocks, so it is a real synthetic. But notice all these years Mobil wouldn't go with an extended drain interval while Amsoil has been at 25,000 miles or one year and has been since 1972. That's the additive package difference right there. Today Mobil has gotten much closer to Amsoil but only with their Extended Performance line.

 

[SoonerBorn]

That's easily explained. The blenders were blending to a specification minimum which is just about what all of them do. Meaning that when they say it meets API specs it really does...when you pour it out of the bottle. But 15 minutes of run time in the engine and it might be a different story. The API specs have gotten better over the years and staying in spec after a set interval of actual usage in an engine is one facet. That's somewhat recent in the last few years too. But Terry Miller is really correct in regards to base stocks that they all use. They are set specific types and all the oil companies start with these so they are starting with the same stuff. They are classified as Groups 1 through 5 with 1 & 2 being conventionally refined dino, Group 3 being hydro cracked dino and commonly called synthetic but not even close in reality, Group 4 being polyalphaolefin and Group 5 being esthers which are mega bucks expensive and usually only used as an additive. Each step up costs more money to produce. A lot of crude won't even make Group 3 these days. Where it gets different among the companies is the additive package that they add to those base stocks. Everyone has their own "recipe" and it varies greatly while the end product end up being about identical overall. They all just "blend up" to just barely meet the API specs. This is where Amsoil has utterly trounced all the others over the years. They have always went far, far above the specs with their additive packages and that's where the most cost to manufacture it is at. Back in the '70s and '80s do you remember the Mobil 1 commercials on TV where they put regular oil and their synthetic oil in a skillet and heated it up? The regular oil was reduced to sludge while the Mobil 1 would still pour out. That was actually a great representation of the difference between dino and synthetic. Back then Mobil 1 was real synthetic but our wonderful .gov changed the game and now the regular Mobil 1 line isn't real synthetic at all, it's made from group 3 base stocks. The Extended Performance is since it's blended from Group 4 stocks, so it is a real synthetic. But notice all these years Mobil wouldn't go with an extended drain interval while Amsoil has been at 25,000 miles or one year and has been since 1972. That's the additive package difference right there. Today Mobil has gotten much closer to Amsoil but only with their Extended Performance line.

So do you really think it's ok to go 25,000 between changes? I used to run Signature Series with the extended interval filters in both vehicles but decided it wasn't worth the extra $ because I couldn't bring myself to go more than 7500 miles; it just didn't feel right. I switched to regular Mobil 1, but will now switch to their Extended Interval per your info. This is great info, btw.

 

[Shadowrider]

So do you really think it's ok to go 25,000 between changes? I used to run Signature Series with the extended interval filters in both vehicles but decided it wasn't worth the extra $ because I couldn't bring myself to go more than 7500 miles; it just didn't feel right. I switched to regular Mobil 1, but will now switch to their Extended Interval per your info. This is great info, btw.

Yep. I was running their Signature Series 0W30 in my Monte Carlo and it was supposedly good for 35,000 miles. I ran it just over 30,000 once and a little less later because I could never seem to hit the milage when at home, I would always be out of town for work. Later on when that car had about 175,000 miles I pulled the upper and lower intake to change gaskets because of a known problem of them failing. When I yanked the lower intake I was shocked. There was no sludge at all, the engine was just spotless inside. That car had 247,000 miles on it IIRC when it cracked a head. Not the oil's fault. It still had the same power and got the same mileage as when new. I was planning on running it to around 325,000 before replacing it.

Just make sure you know the difference between normal and severe service categories and pick the right change interval. When I took my oil that far it was about 99% highway miles, as I drove over 60,000 that year. Very few people fall into the normal category. Now days their filters are even better than they were then. I was changing the filter and topping off every 5-7K miles just like they said to do. You don't have to do that with their EAO series filters that they have now. Honestly with most people these days falling into the severe service category, if running Amsoil oils AND EAO series filters, we are realistically taking oil changes to being a once a year proposition and still getting killer protection. That's where I'm at now since they have me working from home 99.5% of the time.

 

[SoonerBorn]

Yep. I was running their Signature Series 0W30 in my Monte Carlo and it was supposedly good for 35,000 miles. I ran it just over 30,000 once and a little less later because I could never seem to hit the milage when at home, I would always be out of town for work. Later on when that car had about 175,000 miles I pulled the upper and lower intake to change gaskets because of a known problem of them failing. When I yanked the lower intake I was shocked. There was no sludge at all, the engine was just spotless inside. That car had 247,000 miles on it IIRC when it cracked a head. Not the oil's fault. It still had the same power and got the same mileage as when new. I was planning on running it to around 325,000 before replacing it. Just make sure you know the difference between normal and severe service categories and pick the right change interval. When I took my oil that far it was about 99% highway miles, as I drove over 60,000 that year. Very few people fall into the normal category. Now days their filters are even better than they were then. I was changing the filter and topping off every 5-7K miles just like they said to do. You don't have to do that with their EAO series filters that they have now. Honestly with most people these days falling into the severe service category, if running Amsoil oils AND EAO series filters, we are realistically taking oil changes to being a once a year proposition and still getting killer protection. That's where I'm at now since they have me working from home 99.5% of the time.

Right on. Thanks again for your info. Sorry for the hijack, GC.

 

[Sanford]

This is all marketing. They want you to buy their $2 oil that costs $4+.

Well, that's not happening - I use Mystik JT-8. The reason I choose to run dino oil in generators has to do more with the nature of generator engines needing to run steadily and smoothly at a specific speed to keep the electrical frequency within spec. Many/most other small engines don't (and don't need to) run as close as possible to the same speed plus or minus a few RPM for hours at a time - that's what I meant when I said "finicky" as regards generators. So, sure - a synthetic oil may stay "thinner" in cold weather - but if that's really okay for the engine and optimum for the performance of the generator why didn't the manufacturer just specify use of a lower viscosity oil - synthetic or no - to start with? After all it would be a potential selling point to make it use less fuel and have a longer run time per tank, much less keeping the enviroweenies happier. Now if it were a Briggs engine - sure, the lube chart in the manual even recommends specific grades of synthetic for specific temperature ranges.

In the end it all comes down to who you believe knows more about the engines - the people who design and build them or the people who want to sell you their particular prescription of snake - oops - "technologically advanced" oil to put in them.

 

[Shadowrider]

Well, that's not happening - I use Mystik JT-8. The reason I choose to run dino oil in generators has to do more with the nature of generator engines needing to run steadily and smoothly at a specific speed to keep the electrical frequency within spec. Many/most other small engines don't (and don't need to) run as close as possible to the same speed plus or minus a few RPM for hours at a time - that's what I meant when I said "finicky" as regards generators. So, sure - a synthetic oil may stay "thinner" in cold weather - but if that's really okay for the engine and optimum for the performance of the generator why didn't the manufacturer just specify use of a lower viscosity oil - synthetic or no - to start with? After all it would be a potential selling point to make it use less fuel and have a longer run time per tank, much less keeping the enviroweenies happier. Now if it were a Briggs engine - sure, the lube chart in the manual even recommends specific grades of synthetic for specific temperature ranges.

In the end it all comes down to who you believe knows more about the engines - the people who design and build them or the people who want to sell you their particular prescription of snake - oops - "technologically advanced" oil to put in them.

You are overthinking this. The viscosity standards and measurements are the same for synthetic and dino. There is no difference. Also read the second sentence of your link.

Honda engines are developed, tested and certified with petroleum based motor oils as a lubricant. Synthetic oils may be used; however, any motor oil used in our engines must meet all oil requirements as stated in the owner’s manual. In addition, recommended oil change intervals must be followed.

 

[Sanford]

You are overthinking this. The viscosity standards and measurements are the same for synthetic and dino. There is no difference. Also read the second sentence of your link.

Had a pair of 6.5KW generators on a bus. One started having serious frequency stability problems just after it was serviced (only the one serviced - they were always serviced alternately). As part of eliminating every possible cause we could think of we drained the oil and changed the filter for analysis. When we replaced them with our usual oil (we used Delo 400 in them) the problems went away. It was subsequently discovered that a synthetic oil had been used in the change prior to the start of the problems, and while there's no guarantee that was the problem since we never tried it again the evidence sure pointed that way. It's also something that may very well not apply to the OP's Honda since these particular generators were Wankel powered and used oil-circuit speed regulators for stability, which is why I didn't mention it initially. I bring it up now only because of the statement "There is no difference" because - well - there may be, depending on the application, whether or not there's any difference in the specifications.

And I read the second sentence, and third. One says "synthetic oils may be used", and the other says "recommended oil change intervals must be followed" which rather nullifies the extended oil change interval benefit claimed by synthetics. If "There is no difference" otherwise it would seem there's little advantage to be gained by paying the extra cost of synthetics.

It's one of those discussions that fits right up there with what the best cleaning regimen or lube is for guns; everyone has their own preference, for their own reasons.