HB1062 mandates FRANGIBLE ammunition???

[mons meg]

I just found out about this, and couldn't find a 2A forum post I have let Jason Murphey know that this is not a good idea AT ALL. We are suspecting that the bill's authors meant "hollowpoint" and used the wrong industry term of art.

Anyone else hear about this? It's in Section 4D of the engrossed version, which means it already went to the Senate this way:

When carrying a firearm pursuant to the provisions of this act, the person shall at all times carry the firearm in a concealed manner and shall be required to have the firearm loaded with frangible ammunition.

A few emails and/or polite calls may be in order. I sure wouldn't want this bill to get passed with that handicap put on there.

 

[Dale00]

Might help to have an authoritative written source to cite so it's not just "Joe Citizen's opinion."

 

[Sanford]

Good read recommending frangible not be used for PD at:

http://www.ballistics101.com/personal_defense.php

.223 Frangible penetration comparable to .357 JHP:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm

I shot a .357 Magnum 158 grain JHP out of my 6" Colt Python.

Much to our surprise, it was stopped by the 10th board after going through 9 boards. It was fully expanded.

I then tried a frangible .223 that Hardshell sent me to try.

They were Federal 50 grain, Frangible rounds.

This round went through 8 boards and bounced off the 9th board.

And one more:

http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008/04/21/the-proper-ammunition-for-home-defense/

Some ammunition manufactures offer specialty ammunition that is designed to stop a home invader, but to not over penetrate. Some are frangible bullets (which will shatter on impact), others have hollow projectiles that are filled with small metal pellets, and others are very light bullets traveling at extremely high speeds. While many of these products look great on paper, they are often newer products that lack the known effectiveness and reliability of standard ammunition. Further aggravating the problem is the fact that these products are usually more expensive than standard ammunition, making it more costly for a gun owner to fire many rounds in their gun in order to test the recoil and reliability of the exotic ammunition.

 

[BCurry1]

http://www.oklegislature.gov/BillInfo.aspx?Bill=hb1062&Session=1300

Looks like this refers to the Special Reserve School Resource Officer Act. That allows teachers to carry at schools after completing a reserve program.

 

[Dale00]

Good info, Sanford. Even better might be a govt document about the type of ammunition is used by air marshalls or other law enforcement.

 

[mons meg]

Sorry, yes, this is the "teacher carry" bill.

As for authoritative sources, I know of no police departments that mandate ammo like Glaser "safety slugs". I really think they were confusing "frangible" with hollowpoint, but we should know more later today, I hope.

Just so we're clear, frangible rounds are generally a cluster of pellets, (think birdshot) that is bound together with a type of glue and/or a copper shell. It's designed to expand rapidly once it encounters a soft target and "dump it's energy" which I think is code for "doesn't penetrate well".

Anyway, I found this article from 2005 regarding the air marshal service, seems they used to carry Glaser-type ammunition, but then they switched to .357sig hollowpoints in their P229s:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-12-07-air-marshals_x.htm

And here:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/jun/13/20060613-123248-2105r/?page=all

It's still apparently somewhat controversial, but the Air Marshal service has some unique tactical concerns. Another thing to consider? Existing SROs who are active duty LEOs aren't required to carry frangible, but the teacher/employee WOULD be according to the way the bill currently reads. Doesn't make sense. Schools are full of kids. So are playgrounds and malls, and we don't expect "safety slugs" to be used in those situations. An MD-80 at 36000 feet? You might be able to sell me there.

Just some thoughts. Dale, I don't know if you'd be able to get an official government document describing the equipment air marshals are using without FOIA, but I could be wrong. In any case, I don't think we should be comparing airline tactical concerns with a school.

 

[Sanford]

D. Upon successful completion of the special reserve school resource officer academy, school personnel shall have statewide peace officer certification while performing his or her official duties as an employee of the school district and shall have the authority to carry a concealed handgun anywhere in the state including school property subject to and in compliance with the policies established by the board of education of the school district. When not performing official duties as an employee of the school district, the special reserve school resource officer shall not have statewide peace officer certification status. When carrying a firearm pursuant to the provisions of this act, the person shall at all times carry the firearm in a concealed manner and shall be required to have the firearm loaded with frangible ammunition.

This seems like one of those deals where once the camel gets his nose under the edge of the tent it won't be long before we're all sleeping with the camels. After all, if it's a good idea for our school teachers why shouldn't everyone else be limited to frangible ammo?

 

[mons meg]

I honestly think it was ignorance rather than malice here, based on the bill sponsors intentions. But it IS a facepalm moment for me, at least.

 

[Sanford]

Good info, Sanford. Even better might be a govt document about the type of ammunition is used by air marshalls or other law enforcement.

Not government documents, but ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaser_Safety_Slug

The United States Federal Air Marshal Service tested and used the Glaser Safety Slug extensively in the 1970s and 80s on board commercial passenger aircraft to defend against hijackers. Air Marshals are now issued SIG Sauer P229 pistols with a 12 round capacity firing conventional jacketed hollow point ammunition in .357 SIG caliber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Air_Marshal_Service

Federal air marshals carry the Sig Sauer P229 service pistol chambered for .357 SIG and a baton. According to an anonymous air marshal, they are trained to "shoot to stop", typically firing at the largest part of the body (the chest) and then the head to "incapacitate the nervous system".

If they're going to add this sort of limitation in the bill at all, and IMHO they do not, perhaps they should look to what ammunition is recommended/allowed/required by the OSBI, DPS, and police and sheriff's departments for their own officers' use.

 

[Sanford]

I honestly think it was ignorance rather than malice here, based on the bill sponsors intentions. But it IS a facepalm moment for me, at least.

May well be, but the next person to come along may wish to use it for other intentions. I can also well imagine a lawyer using it in a civil case against a CC/OC shooter (or possible even peace officer) outside the school environment, and uneducated juries buying into it. Just don't think we need this kind of precedent coded into law.