Help settle a debate

[tomthebaker]

I had a difference of opinion with a CLEET instructor. He asserted that in order to use deadly force in your own home, an intruder would have to be a deadly force threat. I contend that you can shoot a bad guy before he is even in your home, if he is in the process of breaking in.

What does the law state?

 

[Dave70968]

You are correct. See 21 O.S. 1289.25, Physical or Deadly Force Against Intruder:

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A. The Legislature hereby recognizes that the citizens of the State of Oklahoma have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes or places of business.


B. A person or an owner, manager or employee of a business is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

1. The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or a place of business, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against the will of that person from the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or place of business; and

2. The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

[emphasis mine]

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Also note that it goes beyond your home; it includes a vehicle or place of business, and also includes Joe Critter trying to pull you out.

Now, there are exceptions to the presumption:

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C. The presumption set forth in subsection B of this section does not apply if:


1. The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not a protective order from domestic violence in effect or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person;

2. The person or persons sought to be removed are children or grandchildren, or are otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or

3. The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or place of business to further an unlawful activity.

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Even absent the exceptions, though, remember that B gives you a presumption, not an absolute free pass. If your neighbor's ten-year-old sneaks in unarmed, and you have the lights on and see it, the prosecution is free to rebut the presumption.

In short: read the whole statute, word-by-word, and ask questions as you come up with them. Definitions can be tricky in law, and precise usage of words matters.

 

[jaketinaboxer]

dang. beat me to it. I had just copied/pasted when I seen your post. yeah they just have to be in the act per the statute, and if they are breaking in I would always assume I was threatened.

 

[Buzzgun]

The instructor needs to go back to school.


Oklahoma Statutes (O.S.)

Title 21. Penal Code

§ 21-1289.25 PHYSICAL OR DEADLY FORCE AGAINST INTRUDER


A. The Legislature hereby recognizes that the citizens of the State of Oklahoma have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes or places of business.

B. A person or an owner, manager or employee of a business is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

1. The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or a place of business, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against the will of that person from the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or place of business; and

2. The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

C. The presumption set forth in subsection B of this section does not apply if:

1. The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not a protective order from domestic violence in effect or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person;

2. The person or persons sought to be removed are children or grandchildren, or are otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or

3. The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or place of business to further an unlawful activity.

D. A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

E. A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle of another person, or a place of business is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

F. A person who uses defensive force, as permitted pursuant to the provisions of subsections B and D of this section, is justified in using such defensive force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such defensive force. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes charging or prosecuting the defendant.

G. A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of defensive force, but the law enforcement agency may not arrest the person for using defensive force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the defensive force that was used was unlawful.

H. The court shall award reasonable attorney fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection F of this section.

I. The provisions of this section and the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act shall not be construed to require any person using a weapon pursuant to the provisions of this section to be licensed in any manner.

J. A person pointing a weapon at a perpetrator in self-defense or in order to thwart, stop or deter a forcible felony or attempted forcible felony shall not be deemed guilty of committing a criminal act.

K. As used in this section:

1. “Defensive force” includes, but shall not be limited to, pointing a weapon at a perpetrator in self-defense or in order to thwart, stop or deter a forcible felony or attempted forcible felony;

2. “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people;

3. “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest; and

4. “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.

 

[Emoney]

My understand of the SDA is you are right.

TITLE 21 § 1289.25 PHYSICAL OR DEADLY FORCE AGAINST INTRUDER
A. The Legislature hereby recognizes that the citizens of the State of Oklahoma have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes or places of business.

B. A person or a owner, manager or employee of a business is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

1. The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or a place of business, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against the will of that person from the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or place of business; and
2. The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

Just keep in mind subsection C below:

C. The presumption set forth in subsection B of this section does not apply if:

1. The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not a protective order from domestic violence in effect or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person;
2. The person or persons sought to be removed are children or grandchildren, or are otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
3. The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or place of business to further an unlawful activity

 

[Emoney]

yeah my bad no one had posted then I did and now I see I was beaten to it teach me to idle on the page.

 

[D. Hargrove]

Like our local expert said... Then again, just cause you can doesn't mean ya gotta.

 

[emapples]

Like our local expert said... Then again, just cause you can doesn't mean ya gotta.

Well said, you’d get a warning if I catch you in the act if you proceed through the door after the warning.....I will lose no sleep based on the results I provide the intruder.

 

[Okie4570]

No warnings here, verbal or otherwise.

 

[gerhard1]

Well, that is interesting. I was not aware of that presumption.

Well said, you’d get a warning if I catch you in the act if you proceed through the door after the warning.....I will lose no sleep based on the results I provide the intruder.

This will likely be my policy as well. I don't want to have to use deadly force unless I absolutely have to.