Is it time? AR-15 question

[sh00ter]

What do you base your opinion on, shooter?

Reports of several veterans I've spoken to about the M4 specifically, a few years of frequently reading other "opinions" online, discussing and shooting DI rifles with friends who own them, a LEO opinion who preferred the AK if SHTF over his S&W carbine which was reported to be sluggish and jam unless he re-lubes it after several hundred rounds. I have also observed how the rest of the world prefers piston and how our own military is already testing and buying them; I can read the writing on the wall but I realize DI still has some pluses in it's corner depending on the CONTEXT of the situation. I have heard enough opinions, shot several DI rifles of friends (carbine & full-sized), experienced FTF's and such enough that I chose not to go DI...just like anything else, people should do their own research. I like Ruger 10/22's too, but everyone knows they jam if not clean, lubed and high-quality ammo...unless they are modified which I recommend. Most non-AR piston guns and AR-"ground-up" piston guns are reliable and shoot whatever ammo you throw at them...all of this doesn't equate to DI is crap...it is a different design that by design pipes the hot gas back into the bolt and causes carbon buildup and burns off all the lube...that to me means more frequent maintenance to remain reliable and in SHTF you'd not necessarily have that luxury...all my opinion is meant to be SHTF context...if you take that context out, well then yeah, your nice clean AR is gonna do fine for repelling a home invasion or at the range...

I've only recently begun thinking of purchasing an "evil black rifle" and I really haven't done much in depth study of the two designs. Here's my uniformed .02 though...I lean toward DI because of availability of parts. No design, not even the piston gun, is 100% reliable. In a SHTF scenario I'd prefer a weapon that I can easily find new parts for. It's the same reason I stick to popular calibers for every gun that goes in my safe. Sure, there are ballistically superior rounds out there, but if I can't find ammo for a gun it's useless.

Yes, and I am aware of all these pluses of DI...I mentioned them but not specifically because I figured others would. If you have a piston gun, it is a good idea to have some spare parts around...if you get a piston AR, many of the parts ARE still interchangeable and you could even mate upper and lowers...BUT you will need cleaning supplies and gun oil LONG before you ever needed spare parts...think about that when you compare the SHTF scenario too...but I agree with your general premise and I also agree with the caliber thing.

 

[uncle money bags]

Reports of several veterans I've spoken to about the M4 specifically, a few years of frequently reading other "opinions" online, discussing and shooting DI rifles with friends who own them, a LEO opinion who preferred the AK if SHTF over his S&W carbine which was reported to be sluggish and jam unless he re-lubes it after several hundred rounds. I have also observed how the rest of the world prefers piston and how our own military is already testing and buying them; I can read the writing on the wall but I realize DI still has some pluses in it's corner depending on the CONTEXT of the situation. I have heard enough opinions, shot several DI rifles of friends (carbine & full-sized), experienced FTF's and such enough that I chose not to go DI...just like anything else, people should do their own research. I like Ruger 10/22's too, but everyone knows they jam if not clean, lubed and high-quality ammo...unless they are modified which I recommend. Most non-AR piston guns and AR-"ground-up" piston guns are reliable and shoot whatever ammo you throw at them...all of this doesn't equate to DI is crap...it is a different design that by design pipes the hot gas back into the bolt and causes carbon buildup and burns off all the lube...that to me means more frequent maintenance to remain reliable and in SHTF you'd not necessarily have that luxury...all my opinion is meant to be SHTF context...if you take that context out, well then yeah, your nice clean AR is gonna do fine for repelling a home invasion or at the range...

For the record, I dont have any interest in weapons outside of real world, get in the ****, rely on them to save your life types. I will also admit that my go to rifle is a piston weapon, but not an AR platform. I selected it because I found that a sub 11.5 inch barrel on the AR FOW to have a very narrow dwell time which is only exacerbated by being suppressed or if the gas port is larger than optimal. It takes work to make sure the weapon ran as close to 100 per cent as possible under circumstances that the large majority of shooters do not have the luxury of experiencing.
A spec build AR, with a barrel length of 11.5 inches and longer, with a DI system is just as reliable as any piston system under the same conditions.

The main difference; and in my experience the only real difference, is the DI system needs to be run wet. I have done work, and worked with the AR FOW and AK series for almost 3 decades. The notion that a modern, spec built DI AR needs to be kept clean to run is a fallacy. Do yourself a favor and look up "BCM Filthy 14". As long as the working parts are serviceable,(same as any other weapon), lube is the biggest reliability factor related to the AR itself that needs attention.
With respect to lubrication, there are lubes and there are LUBES. Yes, A DI AR will burn them off more quickly. If you experience a lubricated related malfunction on a DI weapon before you have expended a basic load while adhering to the maximum sustained rate of fire then you chose the wrong lube, or didn't use it correctly. Interestingly enough, the max sustained ROF fire the M4 and the HK416 are exactly the same. That is a clue. Even with my suppressed Mk18, lube was never an issue, and I can promise you I gave it every chance to be. An out of spec upper receiver finally killed that particular weapon at about 9800 rounds. DI is hardly ever the issue for longer barrels, but the build quality will be almost every time. Just so you dont think I am bagging on the mid range and lower AR's, my Mk18 upper was Daniel Defense and cost more by itself than a bone stock Colt 6920.

Damn near every serious shooter* I personally know that runs an AR DI platform eschews cleaning them except to inspect parts for wear and breakage. They perform these checks at intervals commensurate with their firing schedule. The harsher it is, the more often they do it but none of them are doing it at less than 1000 rounds between inspections. What they all do, is keep them well lubed. What they all experience, are reliable weapons.

*people whose jobs involve using a weapon, under ****** conditions, to kill people who need killing.

 

[harley128]

I can't believe the service I get from Fat Boy Tactical--and the great prices............Literally get whatever I order the very next day! Nothing like supporting local business.

 

[sh00ter]

For the record, I dont have any interest in weapons outside of real world, get in the ****, rely on them to save your life types. I will also admit that my go to rifle is a piston weapon, but not an AR platform. I selected it because I found that a sub 11.5 inch barrel on the AR FOW to have a very narrow dwell time which is only exacerbated by being suppressed or if the gas port is larger than optimal. It takes work to make sure the weapon ran as close to 100 per cent as possible under circumstances that the large majority of shooters do not have the luxury of experiencing.
A spec build AR, with a barrel length of 11.5 inches and longer, with a DI system is just as reliable as any piston system under the same conditions.

The main difference; and in my experience the only real difference, is the DI system needs to be run wet. I have done work, and worked with the AR FOW and AK series for almost 3 decades. The notion that a modern, spec built DI AR needs to be kept clean to run is a fallacy. Do yourself a favor and look up "BCM Filthy 14". As long as the working parts are serviceable,(same as any other weapon), lube is the biggest reliability factor related to the AR itself that needs attention.
With respect to lubrication, there are lubes and there are LUBES. Yes, A DI AR will burn them off more quickly. If you experience a lubricated related malfunction on a DI weapon before you have expended a basic load while adhering to the maximum sustained rate of fire then you chose the wrong lube, or didn't use it correctly. Interestingly enough, the max sustained ROF fire the M4 and the HK416 are exactly the same. That is a clue. Even with my suppressed Mk18, lube was never an issue, and I can promise you I gave it every chance to be. An out of spec upper receiver finally killed that particular weapon at about 9800 rounds. DI is hardly ever the issue for longer barrels, but the build quality will be almost every time. Just so you dont think I am bagging on the mid range and lower AR's, my Mk18 upper was Daniel Defense and cost more by itself than a bone stock Colt 6920.

Damn near every serious shooter* I personally know that runs an AR DI platform eschews cleaning them except to inspect parts for wear and breakage. They perform these checks at intervals commensurate with their firing schedule. The harsher it is, the more often they do it but none of them are doing it at less than 1000 rounds between inspections. What they all do, is keep them well lubed. What they all experience, are reliable weapons.

*people whose jobs involve using a weapon, under ****** conditions, to kill people who need killing.

I would agree based on my less experience but what I know is lube is the key; I eluded to my 1911 to illustrate this. I also agree that the full-sized AR's are less likely to have any issues...the cheap carbines are gonna be the biggest chance of failure if you do hi-volume shooting and are in SHTF with no oil...I suppose u could use motor oil, I was told somebody that the Taliban did that for their AK's...and they used a knotted boot lace to run down the barrel to clean them...Most of what I have said can be thrown out the door unless you are talking adverse conditions (like a Road Warrior scenario). That is my main point in comparing an AR carbine to other designs...the context matters here and I realize he didn't ask for that but it was assumed. I like how light-weight the DI rifles are...that is another mark in the "plus" category for them.

 

[farmer17]

Anderson ARs with their RF85 whatever metal process claim they need no lubrication at all. I still put a little lube on mine anyway and it runs great!

 

[uncle money bags]

No lubrication needed claims are pure marketing horse **** when talking about AR's.

 

[sh00ter]

No lubrication needed claims are pure marketing horse **** when talking about AR's.

Yeah I've heard of coated or chromed hardware and I could see how that would help; but no way I'd run a rifle (DI or piston) with no lube at all unless I had to.

 

[NikatKimber]

Motor oil is all I ever run in all of my guns. I don't operate in any theaters, so I clean my guns more than I "need" to.

The M4 carbine by design is actually over gassed, so in adverse conditions it should be more reliable than a rifle or mid length gas system.

 

[uncle money bags]

Over gassed carbine length systems cause their own issues with reliability and parts longevity. That is why the switch to a heavier buffer was introduced to mitigate the effects of that particular good idea fairy.

 

[twoguns?]

Motor oil is all I ever run in all of my guns. I don't operate in any theaters, so I clean my guns more than I "need" to.

The M4 carbine by design is actually over gassed, so in adverse conditions it should be more reliable than a rifle or mid length gas system.

In the bush of Alaska they use chickin grease....seems to stay on quite well...and it smells delish...