Meaning of Drawing / Shoot-Don't Shoot

[gerhard1]

First, I apologize for the somewhat vague title, but I did not know exactly what to call this thread, so I think that I'll go with what I have.
That out of the way, as I said in another thread on an incident in Kansas, the thread in question brought forth an interesting discussion on something else. That is the question of drawing and shooting; that is, do you shoot if you draw?
There seem to be two main schools of thought on this:

1) This is the position that you only draw your weapon with the intent of using it if you have to. If the bad guy sees your weapon and that you are determined to use it if you have to and he backs off, then the gun has defended you successfully.

2) The second position holds that you should never draw your weapon unless you are about to shoot. If you draw your weapon and you don't shoot, you should not have drawn the weapon in the first place. One person in the Kansas thread even said that by drawing and not shooting, that you are brandishing.
The well-known Western marshall Bill Tilghman allegedly took this stance after an encounter with some drunks. One private message to me likened the second position to the purported Samurai custom of not putting away an unbloodied sword.
On the other hand most police agencies don't take this postion, as I have seen Wichita police making a felony car stop. And their guns were drawn. I imagine that it is rare for an officer to have any time on the job, and for him/her not to have pointed their service weapons at suspects. Yet most cops go through their whole careers without having to shoot anyone. And the same laws of deadly force govern both police and civilians.
I have been to LFI. Massad Ayoob taught us that if we draw the gun and the bad guy breaks off his attack, then that is it. Your next act should be to report what happened to the police or sheriff.
My view is in line that that of Ayoob.
Besides, with the gun in your hand, you will be able to respond faster than you would if you were drawing it from a holster.

What do you all think?

 

[OKC_45]

Great thoughts here. One difference to point out here: LEOs often have to have their weapons drawn when entering a dangerous situation (searching a house, high risk traffic stop, etc) - these are job requirements, not just a sticky situation they could run (or try to run) from as is the case for most CCW carriers. My CCW instructor was of the opinion that you don't draw your weapon unless you're going to shoot (in his opinion doing so could be considered brandishing). However, I've seen threads here (and elsewhere) where a good, upstanding CCW citizen perceived a threat and drew their weapon which then neutralized the threat (bad guy ran off, etc). To me, that's a much better outcome! Can't remember who said it on another thread on here or I'd quote it but: nobody wins in a shootout!

If I wait to draw my weapon until I'm absolutely certain I must shoot, it might be too late! Draw the weapon and, hopefully, defuse the situation without firing a shot; then call the police! Usually the first guy to call 911 is perceived to be the "good guy." If the other guy is truly a "bad guy" (and he better be if you drew your weapon) chances are he's not going to call the police or file charges; he'll be long gone.

I say, if it defuses a life-threatening situation - brandish away!

 

[hunter966]

I was thinking along those same lines. The CCW instructor of the class I went to said that if you have to draw your gun and the threat stops then you just saved your life. But be prepared to use it if the threat continues. I can not begin to think what it would be like to go to that next level but if I draw my weapon and not use it then I can live with being a brandisher.

 

[Glocktogo]

1. If you draw as a CCW holder, you should be in the act of presenting it for the purpose of firing to stop an emminent threat of death or great bodily harm. If the attacker suddenly does all the things necessary to break off the attack (freeze, scream like a little girl, wet his pants, run the other way like his hair is on fire, but most importantly, drops his weapon), then you cover said attacker till he submits or he clears the scene.

Once the threat is gone completely, holster your weapon and CALL 911 immediately. State that you've just been attacked, that you defended yourself with your licensed CCW, and give a description of the attacker and direction he headed. Remain calm and DO NOT elaborate on any extraneous details (that SOB ran like a little girl, I showed him, I'm not afraid of punks, etc.).

If the attacker is proned out and you're holding him till the police arrive, give a detailed description of yourself and your clothing so that you can be identified as the reporting party. Make sure your weapon is holstered before they arrive on scene and comply with all directions given by the officer arriving (you may get cuffed till it's sorted out). If the attacker makes a break for it as the cops roll up, let them chase him. That's what they're paid to do.

2. If he keeps attacking, shoot till the lethal threat is neutralized and continue with the above steps.

Remember, you're not brandishing if you can articulate a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm based on the actions of your attacker.

 

[Soulman]

Draw with the intentions of shooting, but if the need to fire removes itself.......don't shoot. Never draw with the intention of scaring someone (I'll point my gun at them to make them stop or settle down). Never draw your weapon if there's no intention to use it.

 

[SMS]

A quick search of 'brandishing' or 'draw and fire' etc...will bring up several threads we've had about this same issue and give you a good idea of the schools of thought floating around.

Certainly if a bad guy breaks of his attack, shooting is not an option, but I posit that it is nearly impossible for a bad guy to break off an actual attack in the time it takes for a well trained shooter to intentionally draw and fire. The OODA loop is a *****.

Keeping in mind that drawing and firing is done in one smooth continuous movement, I firmly believe that if the attacker had time to cease the attack, then either the shooter hesitated in an attempt to wait for a reaction, or the attacker and shooter both had superhuman perception and reflexes.

Run a 21 foot drill with a friend, a rubber knife, and paintball or airsoft gun and see if he can 1) halt his attack after you draw and before you fire 2) you can recognize that halt in mid stroke and adjust.

We're talking milliseconds, not hollywood step back, hand on the pistol, draw with a charlie's angels presentation followed by a 'halt or I'll shoot'.

 

[NikatKimber]

What GTG said.

Draw only if you have reason to actually fire the gun, but that does NOT mean you HAVE to fire it.

The time that the BG has to keep me from shooting will vary, but it won't be much. If he has a knife or other non gun weapon, the time will be longer, but if he has a gun (or is within striking range already) then he will have the time from me exposing gun by beginning the draw, till it's pointed at them. At that point if they are still a threat then well, I would say it's time to start removing the threat.

 

[gerhard1]

Run a 21 foot drill with a friend, a rubber knife, and paintball or airsoft gun and see if he can 1) halt his attack after you draw and before you fire 2) you can recognize that halt in mid stroke and adjust.

This is the Tueller drill. We did it at LFI, and the slowest member of the class (yours truly) was able to close the seven yard distance in about two seconds.

Like someone else here has said, if you can articulate a reason for perceiving that you are in fear of imminent death or GBI, then draw. If the bad guy backs off, great; you have just saved your life without having to take his. If not, with the gun in your hand rather than in its' holster, you are in a much more favorable position to take him on.
No matter how the encounter with the bad guy ends, get on the phone ASAP, and call the police or sheriff. We all carry cell phones, right? If not, get one and carry the damn thing! It is one piece of equipment that is far more likely to be used in an emergency than your handgun.

 

[neverjeg]

If the attacker is proned out and you're holding him till the police arrive, give a detailed description of yourself and your clothing so that you can be identified as the reporting party. Make sure your weapon is holstered before they arrive on scene ...

Sounds like a great way to be a hostage.

 

[Soulman]

If the attacker is proned out and you're holding him till the police arrive, give a detailed description of yourself and your clothing so that you can be identified as the reporting party. Make sure your weapon is holstered before they arrive on scene and comply with all directions given by the officer arriving (you may get cuffed till it's sorted out). If the attacker makes a break for it as the cops roll up, let them chase him. That's what they're paid to do.

I always heard to keep the gun on them until the cops arrive and they instruct you to lay the gun down, etc. If they show up and you're standing there with it holstered, how good with the argument be "I was afraid for my life?". "I was afraid for my life so I held him at gunpoint until the cops arrived and took over..." or something like that.