Michigan pushes right-to-work measure(24th state in the nation to adopt R-T-W)

[SMS]

The "free rider" red herring from another angle.

http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/18017

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110126/GJOPINION_01/701269983/-1/FOSOPINION

Create a product, make it valuable, and people will buy it. That rule applies to widgets and unions. If you live and breathe union, good for you, and I wish you success but they aren't for me. (I'll earn my pay rates/raises through my own performance and value, not "collective bargaining", even as a public sector goober)

 

[ez bake]

Can't some Unions have bad people and others have good people? Do we not still preach personal responsibility on OSA?

Then how about we accuse specific people of wrongdoing and stop generalizing everyone associated with this lifeless "thing" called Unions (sort of like we ask people to do with guns).

It's the people behind them, not the inanimate objects folks. Didn't think I would have to even post that here.

Unions are as evil as Guns are.

 

[SMS]

Can't some Unions have bad people and others have good people? Do we not still preach personal responsibility on OSA?

Then how about we accuse specific people of wrongdoing and stop generalizing everyone associated with this lifeless "thing" called Unions (sort of like we ask people to do with guns).

It's the people behind them, not the inanimate objects folks. Didn't think I would have to even post that here.

Unions are as evil as Guns are.

Correct....and the same goes for RTW and people who don't want mandatory membership.

Choice and Personal Responsibility. Which side is closer to those ideas?

 

[TedKennedy]

Correct....and the same goes for RTW and people who don't want mandatory membership.

Choice and Personal Responsibility. Which side is closer to those ideas?

Valid points indeed. Why stop with Right to Work? Get rid of minimum wage, 40 hrs + = overtime, OSHA,NIOSH, LRB....minimum age for workers.

So how much liberty do you want? Want to be on an equal playing field with some kid in Taiwan? India? Mexico?
If U.S. law did what it should (act in American interests), your "liberty" statement would make more sense.

We are at a point now where companies can go overseas, take advantage of cheap labor and resource costs, yet market products here as if they were produced here. So we have U.S. worker playing by one set of rules, industry playing by another.

Any idea what the average wage earner makes today (in adjusted dollars) compared to the average in 1970?
What drives that? Is it better or worse for Americans to be paid more, have good health insurance, pensions?

Are we better off now, with almost no union membership in the private sector than we were in 1955? 65?....

 

[Vamoose]

I think we've collectively lost sight of what work life was and possibly could be like without unions. It's impossible to deny RickN's and dennishoddy's personal experience. But, per twoguns?' and TedKennedy's comments, unions are responsible for most of the protections we take for granted in the workplace today.

 

[ez bake]

Correct....and the same goes for RTW and people who don't want mandatory membership.

Choice and Personal Responsibility. Which side is closer to those ideas?

My point is that neither side is at all close to reality. Unions are not great freedom fighters, nor are they legalized mafias.

They are organizations that were originally setup to protect rights (like the NRA, Kniferights.org, etc.) and they are voluntary.

Are some unions abused (i.e. nearly run like mafias)? I don't know but like any organization (i.e. our US government, our State government, the school-system, the church, corporations, etc.) I'm sure there is plenty of abuse.

If either side of the media is telling me that unions are mafias or super-hero organization, I'm inclined to say no they aren't.

I'm just as concerned with Unions forcing higher-cost labor with lower-quality (and muscling in on non-union businesses) as I am concerned with corporations that abuse their people (after abusing the system of government handouts/regulations to get unfair advantage over their competition so the can monopolize markets and treat people however they want).

Here's the thing though - lots of folks on this board think Right to Work is great for civil liberties (and it is possible that it would be in a truly free market, but nobody in their right mind would think that we in the US are truly in an unfettered free market), and those same folks think Unions are evil - but when pressed, they jump all over the place as to why.

So here's a good question - why are Unions bad? Lay it out plainly once and for all and then don't start straw-manning or dodging with stick-and-move tactics as to why they're somehow better than big-businesses that got help from Uncle Sam (by way of money and unfair regulations against small private-owned businesses).

I'm betting you can't differentiate between the two because they're exactly the same. Once again, the left and right are arguing over two different evils that are exactly the same (sound familiar?).

 

[mons meg]

Valid points indeed. Why stop with Right to Work? Get rid of minimum wage, 40 hrs + = overtime, OSHA,NIOSH, LRB....minimum age for workers.

So how much liberty do you want? Want to be on an equal playing field with some kid in Taiwan? India? Mexico?
If U.S. law did what it should (act in American interests), your "liberty" statement would make more sense.

We are at a point now where companies can go overseas, take advantage of cheap labor and resource costs, yet market products here as if they were produced here. So we have U.S. worker playing by one set of rules, industry playing by another.

Any idea what the average wage earner makes today (in adjusted dollars) compared to the average in 1970?
What drives that? Is it better or worse for Americans to be paid more, have good health insurance, pensions?

Are we better off now, with almost no union membership in the private sector than we were in 1955? 65?....

Since raising the minimum wage invariable leads to higher unemployment, I think you're on to something here!!

 

[twoguns?]

FYI, I rather enjoy the OSA forum and tend to "peruse" and sometimes even "post" - even when I take a break at work. I didn't post my résumé to gain "creditability" with you. I listed it in an attempt to allow readers to know where I was coming from, (as I stated), and to explain that even though I had no previous experience with unions, I was neither for nor against them. I then went on to explain what I HAVE experienced over the past 6 weeks. Sorry to hurt your little unionized feelings in the process.



Pay checks are GREAT! That's what got me up here!

Oh didnt hurt my feelings , get back to work.
And dont be a smartass!

 

[TedKennedy]

Unions are bad because they tend to use the workers' dues to contribute to politicians campaigns that workers may not themselves support. They also tend to protect workers who are lazy. These are two issues I had when I was in the union, and I hated that part of it.

That said, my net income was still much higher as a union employee than it had been, doing the same job as a non-union emp. Four big improvements - income, forced overtime was controlled by rules, ability to voice opinion without fear, absent/tardy rules were same for everyone.

We had a guy (friend of boss) that regularly missed work/came in drunk. He was my relief at midnight, so if he didn't show, I was stuck til morning. This guy should have been fired YEARS ago. Union came in, rules are rules, he was gone.

Girl got killed at work. Bled everywhere. Shift super tells employee to clean up mess - employee refuses (no health hazard here!) super fires him. Union get employee's job back.

 

[twoguns?]

My point is that neither side is at all close to reality. Unions are not great freedom fighters, nor are they legalized mafias.

They are organizations that were originally setup to protect rights (like the NRA, Kniferights.org, etc.) and they are voluntary.

Are some unions abused (i.e. nearly run like mafias)? I don't know but like any organization (i.e. our US government, our State government, the school-system, the church, corporations, etc.) I'm sure there is plenty of abuse.

If either side of the media is telling me that unions are mafias or super-hero organization, I'm inclined to say no they aren't.

I'm just as concerned with Unions forcing higher-cost labor with lower-quality (and muscling in on non-union businesses) as I am concerned with corporations that abuse their people (after abusing the system of government handouts/regulations to get unfair advantage over their competition so the can monopolize markets and treat people however they want).

Here's the thing though - lots of folks on this board think Right to Work is great for civil liberties (and it is possible that it would be in a truly free market, but nobody in their right mind would think that we in the US are truly in an unfettered free market), and those same folks think Unions are evil - but when pressed, they jump all over the place as to why.

So here's a good question - why are Unions bad? Lay it out plainly once and for all and then don't start straw-manning or dodging with stick-and-move tactics as to why they're somehow better than big-businesses that got help from Uncle Sam (by way of money and unfair regulations against small private-owned businesses).

I'm betting you can't differentiate between the two because they're exactly the same. Once again, the left and right are arguing over two different evils that are exactly the same (sound familiar?).

True enough! and I wont add anything.....except that I'm on lunch break