Noodling / Hand Fishing = Strictly hands only

[Jared]

Except the fact the GWs were not just being nice and not ticketing. They have told us numerous times (multiple GW) that technically there is "no law" against using a stick as long as a hook isnt attached. The law has not changed.
Speeds limits are posted.

the law is called the "hands only" law.

 

[doctorjj]

Jared,
I suppose our difference in opinion lies in how the smooth stick is used. You seem to believe that poking a stick into a hole is taking a fish with it and therefore illegal. I believe that sticking a pole into a hole and then subsequently using the hands as the only means of retrieving the fish, i.e. taking the fish, is, according to written law, legal. I would even venture to say that if you or other wardens saw someone in the act of noodling and they also possess a smooth pole, that you would cite them, despite the fact that you didn't witness them using the stick in the act of taking the fish. I would stipulate that using a stick to help while you are wading through sometimes muddy water is very advisable and just because I possess a stick and that it may even be underwater while I am taking the fish with my hands, doesn't mean that I used it to take the fish or even aid in taking the fish. Maybe I was just stepping on it to keep it from floating away?

 

[Jared]

Jared,
I suppose our difference in opinion lies in how the smooth stick is used. You seem to believe that poking a stick into a hole is taking a fish with it and therefore illegal. I believe that sticking a pole into a hole and then subsequently using the hands as the only means of retrieving the fish, i.e. taking the fish, is, according to written law, legal. I would even venture to say that if you or other wardens saw someone in the act of noodling and they also possess a smooth pole, that you would cite them, despite the fact that you didn't witness them using the stick in the act of taking the fish.

AGAIN: I have not stated any of my own beliefs. Show me where I stated that I believe poking a stick into a hole is taking a fish. What basis do you have for stating that myself or any other warden would cite someone for possessing a smooth pole despite the fact it wasnt witnessed being used?
I believe you making accusations of how an officer will do his/her job is unneccasary. Therefore, due to being tired of repeating myself and being accused of stating things I havent stated, I have no further comments to add to this conversation. Have a nice day.

 

[doctorjj]

Jared, you said:

"the way I see it" doesn't give you a pass. the law reads as follows: Noodling: the taking of fish by use of hands only. Title 800 10-3-5 (e) Possession of hooks, gaffs, spears, poles with hooks attached and/or ropes with hooks attached while in the act of noodling, shall be proof of violation of the "hands only" law.
It means: if you have any of the above items in your possession while in the act of noodling that is prima facie evidence of the violation. If you have a "feel stick" and you are caught using it, it is then a violation of "hands only". Nothing about this law has changed. The enforcement directive has changed from being liberal on the use of "feel sticks" to strictly hands only.

So please describe a scenario in which you would cite an individual for using a smooth pole? Obviously, possession alone isnt enough, say in their boat or on the bank. If they are in the water and you see them with a pole in their hand while noodling but you don't see the pole under the water, I'm guessing, but that wouldn't be a citation? How about if they are noodling, carrying a pole and you see the pole occasionally go underwater? Or are you saying that you would need to see them actively sticking the pole into catfish holes?

I agree with AllOut. It is vague. Having a smooth pole isn't a violation. Using a pole to "take" a fish is. What is your threshold for saying an idividual was using a pole to take a fish. Personally, I don't see how a smooth pole could be used to "take" a fish.

 

[RidgeHunter]

Sorry, Ridge. I didn't realize Jared was the law. I thought the law was the law backed up by years of precedents in actual enforcement.

Besides, he himself said that possession of poles with hooks is evidence of a violation. Possession of a pole is not, by itself, a violation, so he, by law, is going to have to prove that I used it to "take" the fish, or even a liberal reading would have to prove that is used it in assisting to take the fish. Because the law doesn't state that I can't have a wading pole with me. He would have to prove that I used it in the act of taking the fish. Unless he's got underwater cameras set up, well, good luck with that.

And I realize Jared is a warden, but that doesn't mean that his interpretation of the law is 100% correct. Anyone remember the OHP tellingly me I have to notify of CCW permit even when not carrying???

Precedents in enforcement don't make an interpretation don't make your interpretation of the law any more valid than Jared's being a warden makes him correct (which I never implied or stated, and don't believe).

All kinds of laws have histories of non-enforcement/lax enforcement. Speeding, jaywalking, etc, etc. That doesn't mean there is not a law against those offenses, and it doesn't mean the way they are enforced is not subject to change. I've beed told many times by a cop "Hey, you're probably not supposed to be doing this, but be smart about it." That's not a defense if another cop pops me for the same thing.

I get your point. You're saying that a feel stick is not used to actually "take a fish". I think, according to the law, conventional use of a feel stick is against the hands only law. Unless you have a stick for an arm. The law is "by use of hands only" not "by use of hands and a stick only". So, if law enforcement observes you noodling, and observes you going in with a stick, or asking your partner to hand you a stick, etc. - he could build a reasonable case that you are using that stick in a way that violates the hands-only noodling law. Underwater camera not necessary. It's fairly easy to observe a noodler and see what he is doing with that stick.

 

[doctorjj]

Precedents in enforcement don't make an interpretation don't make your interpretation of the law any more valid than Jared's being a warden makes him correct (which I never implied or stated, and don't believe).

All kinds of laws have histories of non-enforcement/lax enforcement. Speeding, jaywalking, etc, etc. That doesn't mean there is not a law against those offenses, and it doesn't mean the way they are enforced is not subject to change. I've beed told many times by a cop "Hey, you're probably not supposed to be doing this, but be smart about it." That's not a defense if another cop pops me for the same thing.

I get your point. You're saying that a feel stick is not used to actually "take a fish". I think, according to the law, conventional use of a feel stick is against the hands only law. Unless you have a stick for an arm. The law is "by use of hands only" not "by use of hands and a stick only". So, if law enforcement observes you noodling, and observes you going in with a stick, or asking your partner to hand you a stick, etc. - he could build a reasonable case that you are using that stick in a way that violates the hands-only noodling law. Underwater camera not necessary. It's fairly easy to observe a noodler and see what he is doing with that stick.

Can I use my feet? How about my arm? Or elbow? All of those are commonly used while noodling. Obviously, I'm just being devil's advocate here. I think if I have a wading stick and I stick it under the water, it would be hard for a warden to say for sure what I'm doing with it unless he has an underwater cam or the water is clear enough for him to see me, (which I've never noodled in clear water). By the items specifically listed it certainly seems as though the original intent of the law was to prevent using gaffe's and spears and to make it man vs fish. I just don't see where a poking stick was ever intended to be illegal. If so, why wasn't that specifically mentioned?

BTW, I think the biggest issue with noodlers is the use of barrels. I think they should drop all the lakes about 4 feet for a few days sometime before the noodling season gets going and remove all the barrels.

 

[AllOut]

BTW, I think the biggest issue with noodlers is the use of barrels. I think they should drop all the lakes about 4 feet for a few days sometime before the noodling season gets going and remove all the barrels.

Easy there Doc, dont get crazy on me now
Funny you say that though cause i know a lot of GW that do take mental notes of "man made" structures when the water is down.... So do other noodlers

 

[Sniper John]

What gets me. You can't carry/use a stick to poke them with, but you can shoot them with a speargun. Though I do think you have to be wearing a scuba tank.

 

[bigcountryok]

What gets me. You can't carry/use a stick to poke them with, but you can shoot them with a speargun. Though I do think you have to be wearing a scuba tank.

Spearing them with scuba gear on is not as easy as it sounds. Trust me.

 

[AllOut]

Spearing them with scuba gear on is not as easy as it sounds. Trust me.

Not for flaheads, I've been spearfishing for a while and shot very few flats.
But I like the way this is going... We use SCUBA gear to noodle sometimes, so i guess instead of using a stick I'll just take my spear gun. From the way I read it, I could just use me spear gun to feel with and if a fish hits it I'll just squeeze the trigger. Pow!!! right in the mouth then drag him out the hole. By the regs I would be spearfishing and perfectly legal???
Alright Jared, is this gonna work or what?