Proposed App For Private Sales

[ConstitutionCowboy]

FWIW, there is a mechanism currently in place with NICS for private sales. A gun buyer and a gun seller can go into any FFL's premises and request a private sale background check. The buyer fills out a 4473 as usual, and the FFL performs the check. If the buyer gets a "proceed", the gun is transferred and either the buyer or seller pays the transfer fee to the FFL. If the seller is "denied", naturally the transfer cannot legally take place. It is not a perfect system, but it is there should a seller have concerns about who is attempting to buy his/her weapon.

I couldn't rightly give this a 'like' because the FFL is much more involved and placed in a potentially dangerous position. Something serious is being overlooked or simply disregarded. Every transfer an FFL accomplishes has to be recorded in his A&D (Acquisitions and Dispositions) book. If the sale doesn't go through either because the transferee failed to pass or the sale was simply canceled, the dealer cannot simply pass the gun back to the owner. A form 4473 and background check must be completed and approved before the gun can be returned to the original owner and logged out of the A&D book with the NICS transaction number or code. If the seller doesn't pass the background check, the FFL dealer is left holding a gun he doesn't rightly own, cannot return it to its owner, and put in danger of life and limb of the obviously dangerous individual who wants his gun back and who's record of felonious or mentally unstable background caused him not to pass.

As an FFL, I will not place myself in such a position.

Woody

 

[harley128]

I couldn't rightly give this a 'like' because the FFL is much more involved and placed in a potentially dangerous position. Something serious is being overlooked or simply disregarded. Every transfer an FFL accomplishes has to be recorded in his A&D (Acquisitions and Dispositions) book. If the sale doesn't go through either because the transferee failed to pass or the sale was simply canceled, the dealer cannot simply pass the gun back to the owner. A form 4473 and background check must be completed and approved before the gun can be returned to the original owner and logged out of the A&D book with the NICS transaction number or code. If the seller doesn't pass the background check, the FFL dealer is left holding a gun he doesn't rightly own, cannot return it to its owner, and put in danger of life and limb of the obviously dangerous individual who wants his gun back and who's record of felonious or mentally unstable background caused him not to pass.

As an FFL, I will not place myself in such a position.

Woody

As I understand it, if the seller has not relinquished the firearm to the FFL, then he or she can leave the premises with it.........in the event of a denial or delay. The FFL holder does not then have any entries required into the A&D books.

 

[DavidH1]

• Just sounds like a spyware app to me.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

As I understand it, if the seller has not relinquished the firearm to the FFL, then he or she can leave the premises with it.........in the event of a denial or delay. The FFL holder does not then have any entries required into the A&D books.

It doesn't work that way. The dealer can't do a NICS check on a transferee without logging the gun in. It needs to be listed on the 4473 when the NICS check is accomplished. If the dealer skips that part, if and when the ATF does an audit and the NTN doesn't show up in the dealers A&D book, it will constitute a violation. The disposition of the gun must have a clear and complete trail. It is truly a 'gotcha'.

A gunsmith can take in a gun for repair and does not have to log it in if the repair is completed and returned to the person who brought it in before the end of the day. If it has to spend the night or longer, it must be logged in. It can be returned to the person who brought it in without a NICS check. If a friend comes to pick up the gun for the person who dropped it off, the gun must be logged in and a 4473 and NICS check has to be made on the 'transferee' regardless if the gun was kept over night or completed the same day it was dropped off.

Woody

 

[mightymouse]

As I understand it, if the seller has not relinquished the firearm to the FFL, then he or she can leave the premises with it.........in the event of a denial or delay. The FFL holder does not then have any entries required into the A&D books.

This is the way I understand it as well. IIRC, the seller has the option of transferring the firearm to the FFL (in which case it is logged into the FFL's A&D book), or of retaining possession of it until the results of the background check are made known. In the latter case, if the transfer cannot legally take place, the seller may leave the premises with his/her gun without undergoing a background check.

 

[mightymouse]

If the seller doesn't pass the background check, the FFL dealer is left holding a gun he doesn't rightly own, cannot return it to its owner, and put in danger of life and limb of the obviously dangerous individual who wants his gun back and who's record of felonious or mentally unstable background caused him not to pass.

As an FFL, I will not place myself in such a position.

Woody

Woody, I can understand your concern. The chances of a felon and/or mentally unstable person wanting to sell his gun through the involvement of an FFL, though, are mighty low, IMO. My understanding of this process mirrors that of Harley128, so, please, if you have the relevant statutes to hand (I do not at the moment), let us know where we are wrong.

 

[harley128]

 

[harley128]

This is from the ATF manual on private sales

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

View attachment 143089

I stand corrected. The gun does not have to be logged in as long as it remains in the seller's hands. The seller, however, must surrender his information so the dealer can log the gun in prior to the actual transfer, at which time the dealer is required to enter the info into his A&D book. If the seller hands over the gun to the dealer for whatever reason, it must then be logged in regardless of whether it becomes a proceed, delay, deny, or the deal falls through. In that case, if for any reason the deal does not get completed, the dealer must do a background check on the seller before it can be returned. If for any reason the seller does not pass and is denied, you now have the dealer holding the seller's gun. The dealer is still at risk and I can find no solutions laid out in the law. The only options I see is that the seller must find someone else to buy his gun or surrender it - but to whom does it get surrendered? The dealer? The ATF? Other law enforcement?

I still believe, as an FFL dealer, it is risky to get involved in a private sale.

Woody

 

[BobbyV]

I stand corrected. The gun does not have to be logged in as long as it remains in the seller's hands. The seller, however, must surrender his information so the dealer can log the gun in prior to the actual transfer, at which time the dealer is required to enter the info into his A&D book. If the seller hands over the gun to the dealer for whatever reason, it must then be logged in regardless of whether it becomes a proceed, delay, deny, or the deal falls through.

We don't need to log it in our A&D book unless we completed the BGC and are given a proceed . . . the firearm must be left in our "exclusive possession". Whatever that means, before we're required to conduct a BGC on the seller to return the firearm on a canceled/denied sale.

In that case, if for any reason the deal does not get completed, the dealer must do a background check on the seller before it can be returned. If for any reason the seller does not pass and is denied, you now have the dealer holding the seller's gun. The dealer is still at risk and I can find no solutions laid out in the law. The only options I see is that the seller must find someone else to buy his gun or surrender it - but to whom does it get surrendered? The dealer? The ATF? Other law enforcement?

I definitely agree it could get very hairy and likely confrontational if you can't immediately (or at all) return the firearm to the original owner.

I still believe, as an FFL dealer, it is risky to get involved in a private sale.

I'm home-based and have basically stopped doing transfers altogether for folks I don't know . . . between working full-time and just having a sporadic schedule I don't like having to take off and sign for shipments.

That might change when I have to retire in 2025.