I'm with AKguy ... I don't ask and you better not if you want me to sell/buy whatever it is is on the chopping block. There was a day when I would go to gun deals by myself all day long and half the night and not think a thing about it. Not now ... not unless it is a FIRMLY established member here ...
I'm with AKguy ... I don't ask and you better not if you want me to sell/buy whatever it is is on the chopping block. There was a day when I would go to gun deals by myself all day long and half the night and not think a thing about it. Not now ... not unless it is a FIRMLY established member here ...
Well, I'll try once again to get the point across, even though at least one person is intentionally CHANGING what I said (misquote somebody and then ridicule what they did NOT say is a standard tactic used by politicians and anti-gunners).
The ATF guidelines I posted make the following points:
1. Private sales to a non-prohibited person RESIDING IN YOUR STATE are allowed, and no recordkeeping is required.
2. Private sales to a RESIDENT OF ANOTHER STATE are a federal felony. The only question, if caught, is whether the seller, the buyer, or BOTH, are charged. There is no debate whether the sale is illegal; it IS.
A. If both buyer and seller conspired to violate the law with an illegal transfer across state lines, then BOTH are charged. One case I posted was a seller in ME who knowingly sold to a New Yorker. At the time, only the ME resident had been caught, the buyer was wanted.
B. If the buyer has, say, a phony ID, then the seller who looks at it has made a reasonable attempt to follow the law, and the BUYER is charged. One case I posted was a NJ resident who obtained a fake PA ID and bought several guns in PA, then sold them in NJ. He was charged with illegal transfers across state line and DEALING WITHOUT AN FFL.
C. If a seller goes to another state and , say, does private sales at gun shows to residents of the other state, that is an ILLEGAL sale. I didn't post it, but one non-FFL routinely traveled between Ohio and PA, buying and selling in both states. He was put in prison for illegal private sales and DEALING WITHOUT AN FFL. Some people who did transactions with him were subjects of an ongoing investigation.
So my caution only applies IF YOU MAKE AN ILLEGAL SALE/PURCHASE. How much do you want to be investigated and (possibly) charged?
A simple pre-existing note that "I sold that gun to Bill Smith of OK in Apr of last year. He showed me an OK DL." is an excellent way to show you made a reasonable attempt to follow the law, and did not know that Bill Smith was a Chicago gun runner with a stolen DL. I'm off the hook.
And for those that think NOT making some attempt to determine state of residence automatically lets you off the hook, it DOES NOT. When the ATF comes to the door because your gun listed on the yellow sheet was recovered at a crime scene, YOU are at that point the subject of an investigation. If during such investigation it is revealed that you are "engaging in the business of buying and selling guns without an FFL" that is another charge. Note that in the IL case, one man was convicted of this for selling 7 GUNS.
I strongly suggest that everyone go back and READ the entire ATF pamphlet, for what it ACTUALLY SAYS.
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-21.pdf
If you never get involved in an illegal sale, then obviously you will never have to deal with this. Question is, when you DO get involved in one (knowingly or not) do you want to have a little insurance to document you always make a good faith effort to comply with the law? For me, I like insurance.
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Well that clears that up. Making an illegal purchase or sale, is illegal? So if I plan to make an illegal sale then I should check the buyers ID?
I didnt misquote you. I actually posted your points just as you wrote them out.
No one is questioning the fact if you do something illegal, then you'll be in trouble.
The fact remains that there is no law that requires a private citizen who is selling a gun to another private citizen, within the borders of the state of OK that they both reside, to check IDs.
Your fictional story about this one ATF agent on his unicorn riding through gun shows arresting people for, how do you put it......
is absolutely false. The law is very clear on this, a private citizen is not required to check for proof of anything, assuming he is selling a gun in the state he resides, and he has no REASON to believe the buyer is not able to lawfully purchase said gun.
Here is the whole quote....that YOU wrote, so as to not be accused of "misquoting" you:
Like myself and others have mentioned, we would love to see an actual case where a private citizen was arrested for not checking for ID, as you have said your mysterious ATF agent does.
Otherwise, you're just spreading false internet rumors, in which case the Huffington Post Im sure would love to have you writing articles on gun laws for them.
That is an intentionally obtuse statement.
The charge is selling a gun to a resident of another state.
If/ when you do it, especially to an undercover ATF agent from Maryland, what is your defense? Obviously you did it, maybe you routinely sell to out of state?
Maybe you are dealing without an FFL?
THAT is the real issue. You have committed a crime by selling out of state.
I don't know any plainer way to put it.
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I'm with you Rod, it is illegal and there is no question about that.
I think my issue here is with how much insurance a note about what happened with the gun really is. Or what level of suspicion you should have when conducting a private sale.
If a buyer drives up in a vehicle with an OK plate and is obviously of age then what more do you gain by seeing their DL? It's not like felons have a big red F on there, or schizophrenics have a big red S stamped on the plastic. If I sell that gun and it ends up at a crime scene they will come knocking on my door, but I have to think they still have some burden of proof to show that I did not perform due diligence when selling. In the case of an ATF agent from out of state. If he walks up to you at a gun show to buy a rifle slung over your shoulder and offers no reason for you to question where he lives or his age, how can they charge you with a crime if there isn't a law to check his ID? I get that it is illegal, I do. I just want to know how they get from suggesting you check some form of ID, to jail time for not checking ID. That makes it less of a suggestion and more of a requirement.
That's my sticking point, if you can get me around it please do, I am not trying to be argumentative here.
I think my issue here is with how much insurance a note about what happened with the gun really is. Or what level of suspicion you should have when conducting a private sale.
If a buyer drives up in a vehicle with an OK plate and is obviously of age then what more do you gain by seeing their DL? It's not like felons have a big red F on there, or schizophrenics have a big red S stamped on the plastic. If I sell that gun and it ends up at a crime scene they will come knocking on my door, but I have to think they still have some burden of proof to show that I did not perform due diligence when selling. In the case of an ATF agent from out of state. If he walks up to you at a gun show to buy a rifle slung over your shoulder and offers no reason for you to question where he lives or his age, how can they charge you with a crime if there isn't a law to check his ID? I get that it is illegal, I do. I just want to know how they get from suggesting you check some form of ID, to jail time for not checking ID. That makes it less of a suggestion and more of a requirement.
That's my sticking point, if you can get me around it please do, I am not trying to be argumentative here.
All of this could come down to the interpretation of a single word, KNOWINGLY. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowingly
There are three ways this could go, and while some here presume that the only definition is "actual knowledge" but I have thus far been unable to confirm that. A court could just as easily apply a "constructive knowledge" definition. If you think that it is unreasonable to be leery of judicial interpretation of such a simple word, I invite you to explore the history of the word "necessary," as used in the Necessary and Proper clause of the Constitution.
There are three ways this could go, and while some here presume that the only definition is "actual knowledge" but I have thus far been unable to confirm that. A court could just as easily apply a "constructive knowledge" definition. If you think that it is unreasonable to be leery of judicial interpretation of such a simple word, I invite you to explore the history of the word "necessary," as used in the Necessary and Proper clause of the Constitution.
Wrong. It is NOT a crime to sell out of state. It IS a crime to KNOWINGLY sell out of state.
FWIW I don't check ID's, and wouldn't unless I have some specific reason to think the buyer might be prohibited or from another state. Likewise, it would have to be one hell of a good deal for me to show mine in a private sale. If I drove and met somebody and he wanted to add that kind of extra condition to a deal, I'd be demanding my gas money from him.
Finally, someone said it.
Even in these here fine classifieds you have guys wanting to see ID/ccl, etc...unless you're a dealer, you don't need squat from me and I'll do biz elsewhere.
I'd meet ya in a dark alley....
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