Remington 870 or 1100? Which one?

[MoBoost]

Lastly, I do believe that military use is the best way to bring out the strengths and weaknesses of ANY piece of equipment. I have worked for the Army Ordnance Corp for the past 27 years and see every day the kind of abuse that stuff takes. If something can stand up to a soldier, it should stand up to anything. If it doesn’t stand up it gets updated or replaced. The M1911, M1 Garand, etc.. did not get their reputation in the hunting fields. The M16 did have issues and they were remedied in later versions to the fine weapon they are today. I believe the 870 has stood up to this “test of time” as well.

Thank you for very well put together and constructive post.

I am not usually that bipolar - I do understand that firearms are series of compromises; but enough is enough. Nothing in your post made me change my mind about 870. Kids, dogs and guns - I love them all, I just don't let my love cloud my judgement.

I did quote the part about military use - Remington refused to do the military testing - Mossberg 500 didn't, it passed; with metal safety and trigger guards revisions AKA m590a1 - the only shotgun under military "contract".
Correct me if I am wrong - all 870 in mil/police use are independent purchases/donations (maybe an Airforce contract to scare off birds at the air field?)

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

Thank you for very well put together and constructive post.

I am not usually that bipolar - I do understand that firearms are series of compromises; but enough is enough. Nothing in your post made me change my mind about 870. Kids, dogs and guns - I love them all, I just don't let my love cloud my judgement.

I did quote the part about military use - Remington refused to do the military testing - Mossberg 500 didn't, it passed; with metal safety and trigger guards revisions AKA m590a1 - the only shotgun under military "contract".
Correct me if I am wrong - all 870 in mil/police use are independent purchases/donations (maybe an Airforce contract to scare off birds at the air field?)

Actually, the Marine Corps adopted the 870 back in the late 60's (google 870 Mk1) and still have them today. I think they bought over 3000 of them.

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

Oh, and there is also the 870 Modular Combat Shotgun (MCS), but I do not know if it has been bought in any large numbers. Here is more info on it:

http://www.defensereview.com/new-remington-870-modular-combat-shotgun-mcs-and-870p-max-for-mille-apps/

 

[MoBoost]

Man, I must have read 200 pages of 870 reviews and praises ... I almost started believing it: "I love mine" thousands of times over just gets to you. As I said, people love their guns - with 10 million sold, there are just as many people in love with their 870.
And, yes, you can write-off bb-gun safety and slide release location as "quirks", shell lifter scratches as "character"; but FTEs and shell-under-lifter jams are deadly and obvious DESIGN FLAWS; its not something you can train/practice around, it is beyond operator's control.

Knowing this -why would anyone recommend such a weapon for SD?

Not to sound like a fan-boy, but Mossberg just doesn't have these or other flaws (I'll give you pistol grip/safety part). It is the only shotgun listed under Active duty for all US Armed Forces except for Marines that are switching(ed?) to Benelli.

P.S. Does Remington police knock your door down if you say that they haven't made a decent gun since 1944?

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnmJPPuKS1k

Man, I must have read 200 pages of 870 reviews and praises ... I almost started believing it: "I love mine" thousands of times over just gets to you. As I said, people love their guns - with 10 million sold, there are just as many people in love with their 870.
And, yes, you can write-off bb-gun safety and slide release location as "quirks", shell lifter scratches as "character"; but FTEs and shell-under-lifter jams are deadly and obvious DESIGN FLAWS; its not something you can train/practice around, it is beyond operator's control.

Knowing this -why would anyone recommend such a weapon for SD?

Not to sound like a fan-boy, but Mossberg just doesn't have these or other flaws (I'll give you pistol grip/safety part). It is the only shotgun listed under Active duty for all US Armed Forces except for Marines that are switching(ed?) to Benelli.

P.S. Does Remington police knock your door down if you say that they haven't made a decent gun since 1944?

Sir, you keep mentioning the shell under the lifter being a design flaw. You are correct, but that flaw has been fixed for about 20 years. The Flex-Tab on the newer 870's solved this problem (you can buy the parts from Brownells to upgrade an older 870). Here is a video showing a shell under the lifter jam with the older model lifter (which he did actually clear twice anyway) and the same jam with a flex-tab lifter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnmJPPuKS1k

As for the FTE with heavy loads, again, I have never witnessesed or heard of this issue. Could you please provide some links where this issue is discussed? I do know that most LE agencies use the reduced recoil 00 Buck loads for faster follow-up shots, so that has not been an issue. This load also makes for an excellent HD round and is what I shoot in my 870. I would not be shooting 3.5" Maximum loads in a HD scenario anyway.

Again, I am not saying that the 870 is the best thing out there, but it is not the worst either. ALL guns have some idiosyncrasies.

 

[technetium-99m]

CAR-AR-M16

My FTE issue was a problem prevalent in the newer production express guns. Upon firing a number of shells, (usually it happened around 5-6th fired) the gun would lock up and not allow the action to be operated at all. To fix it you pretty much had to butt stroke the thing to clear it. In my particlar example, it was more prevalent with hi brass slugs/buck.

A simple Google search of "870 extraction problem" will lead you to an hour of reading about various people's issues with newer production (like after 2000) express guns. To fix it I went on a mad polishing spree and by the time I fixed the extraction issues I was fed up with trying to load the thing weakhanded so I sold it. Loading 4 shells out of your weak hand (which you have to do quite a bit if you're shooting practical shotgun matches or 3-gun) into an 870 is an excercise in frustration because the port is short, narrow, and has sharp sides. Every other pump gun I have seen is easier to load this way than an 870. Since shotguns hold so little ammo being able to load it quickly is a requirement if I'm going to use it as a defensive firearm.

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

CAR-AR-M16

My FTE issue was a problem prevalent in the newer production express guns. Upon firing a number of shells, (usually it happened around 5-6th fired) the gun would lock up and not allow the action to be operated at all. To fix it you pretty much had to butt stroke the thing to clear it. In my particlar example, it was more prevalent with hi brass slugs/buck.

A simple Google search of "870 extraction problem" will lead you to an hour of reading about various people's issues with newer production (like after 2000) express guns. To fix it I went on a mad polishing spree and by the time I fixed the extraction issues I was fed up with trying to load the thing weakhanded so I sold it. Loading 4 shells out of your weak hand (which you have to do quite a bit if you're shooting practical shotgun matches or 3-gun) into an 870 is an excercise in frustration because the port is short, narrow, and has sharp sides. Every other pump gun I have seen is easier to load this way than an 870. Since shotguns hold so little ammo being able to load it quickly is a requirement if I'm going to use it as a defensive firearm.

Thanks for the info. I wonder why there is an issue with the newer guns. Mine is an old police trade-in Wingmaster that I upgraded. I have fire a LOT of high brass 00 Buck without that issue. I know that the older Wingmaster hade more hand fitting/polishing than the newer guns. Perhaps that is the issue.

 

[Biggsly]

I have owned several of both. I still own my 870. Hard to beat.

 

[ProBusiness]

870's chamber come a bit small in diameter. When i shot steel rim shells, the rim would expand due to the heat when shot and seize against the inside of the chamber wall. when this happened you could not eject the shell. had no problems with brass rimed hulls. i just ground out the chamber to a larger diameter and no more problem. i have heard/seem a few 870 EXPRESS like this but never heard of a WINGMASTER of any age doing this. My 870 express was bought new about 1998.

 

[SoonerStatePawn]

I've got both in my shop if you ever want to stop by and handle them. I personally have an 870 that belonged to my grandpa. It's the most reliable shotgun I own and have never had a problem with it. It's one of my guns I'll never part with.