Army wants to dump the M9?

[Junior Bonner]

It has been my experience that when this debate comes up, the guys advocating the bigger is better, or this and that special sauce seem to overlook the most important part, which is training. Of course they can argue the absurd and start making comments like," well, then the .22 should be the tits if shot placement is everything". Penetration is necessary for the round to work and if a .22 will do it in all of the scenarios you expect to encounter, then more power to you. Further, by accuracy I mean the shooters ability to put hits where they want when they want.
I wont say one way or the other except to relate this fact. I had a great uncle who was a deputy sheriff in Washita county killed in the line of duty by a single .22 shot to the chest. So take that for what it is worth.

Caliber selection for a round you intend to depend on to save your life should be determined by reliability first, accuracy/penetration second, and special sauce a distant last. As long as you satisfy those requirements for the anticipated threat then have at it.

Am sorry about your uncle, I hope help got to him and he did not die alone on the road. I hope they got the guy that shot him, too. And I hope he got fried for doing that.

 

[uncle money bags]

Thanks brother. his memorial page is here: http://www.odmp.org/officer/9176-deputy-sheriff-cleo-meeks

For some reason the photo is not correct, and either my recollection of the story is incorrect or he was actually shot twice. What I am sure of was the caliber of the weapon used.

Deputy Meeks was shot and killed while serving an arrest warrant.

At about 8 P.M. he was assisting a Kiowa County deputy sheriff in serving an arrest warrant on a 19 year old man for narcotics. As the deputies approached the house the young man's father opened fire on the deputies, wounding both. Deputy Meeks was shot in the head and chest. The target of the arrest warrant dragged the wounded deputy to safety and called police and medical assistance, but he died before help could arrive. The Kiowa County deputy survived his wounds. The suspect was arrested for the deputy's murder.

The suspect was convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to life on December 11, 1967.

It is my understanding that my uncle knew the family of the suspect being served which is why he was along for the service.

The correct picture and a little more to the story can be found here:http://www.oklemem.com/Agencies/Washita County Sheriffs Office.htm

Third photo down.

 

[Lurker66]

The Five seveN is the right handgun with the right round. But I promise you, Lurker, it will not even be considered in the upcoming trials. It will be 9mm vs .45 all over again.

Your prolly right. Like I said IMO, its about firepower. If im a soldier and fightin with a pistol im wanting capacity and reliability. The FN 5.7 should get consideration, im bettin it wont.

 

[OKCShooter]

LOl, you cherry pick and introduce your sarcasm that in no way has anything to do with what I said.

Most of us know that no bullet knocks anybody down. I've seen deer hit with a .458 Weatherby magnum that continued to run until their blood pressure fell enough for them to die.

I've seen deer shot with a .22-250 drop in their tracks. Its all about placement.

I quoted your entire response...didn't know that was "cherry picking"?

Then you state "that in no way has anything to do with what I said" and then go on to talk about shooting deer which has nothing to do with this topic - the whole "shot placement" idea is obvious to anyone with any sense whatsoever.

But, glad you got to LOL!

 

[ldp4570]

9MM VS 45ACP will probably go on for the next few decades. If you don't or can't put that first shot in the head, plan on shooting lots more. Without a good head shot, you'll have to make sure you cause massive fluid loss before most go down. Thats for rifle's and pistol's!!

 

[dennishoddy]

I quoted your entire response...didn't know that was "cherry picking"?

Then you state "that in no way has anything to do with what I said" and then go on to talk about shooting deer which has nothing to do with this topic - the whole "shot placement" idea is obvious to anyone with any sense whatsoever.

But, glad you got to LOL!

Your comments were cherry picking, you left out the part that I said with modern ammunition there is little difference. I stand by the ball ammo comment that he is not far off.

I never said it was sealed in stone for my comment did I? Way too many variables in bullet performance in soft tissue for anybody to make a hard statement, but as the newest ballistician with worlds of internet experience, I'm sure you already knew that.

And what difference is a deer vs a human when considering shots to an anatomy, bleeding out, vs CNS hits, other than placement of their organs in relationship to a human?
Perhaps you can go into detail about their anatomy with me, how their lungs, heart, CNS, liver, spleen and how they are different than a human, and how a round has a ballistic effect on them vs a human?

The U.S. military adopted the 9mm pistol in 1985, largely to standardize ammunition. All other NATO states used 9mm for pistols. The U.S. also noted that most 9mm pistols were carried by officers and support personnel, who rarely used them in combat. SOCOM came into being a few years later and immediately began planning to bring back .45 pistols. Actually, many Special Forces and SEAL operators never gave up using the .45, as it was the ideal pistol for many operations.

LEOs assigned to special units with the LAPD (SIS, SWAT, etc) are authorized to carry and issued 1911s.
Currently, it's the Kimber Custom TLE II (.45ACP).

The Beretta Model 70 and the functionally identical Model 71, both in .22 LR, have served with great distinction as the signature terminator pistol of the Mossad, the premiere intelligence agency of the State of Israel. The Beretta 70 was also carried by Israeli Sky Marshals.

So do we argue .22 RF vs .45ACP?

 

[MoBoost]

Your comments were cherry picking, you left out the part that I said with modern ammunition there is little difference. I stand by the ball ammo comment that he is not far off.

1 shot and they are down for good - is not a far off statement as long as 45ACP FMJ is fired. That's what you said.

Your inability to admit to being wrong is Oscar-worthy!

 

[MoBoost]

Your example is antiquated because it still doesn't represent anything other than soft tissue hits accurately. The human body is tough, and I'd like to see a more precise representation of what will actually happen because there are other soft tissues other than muscle and this would create a TON of variables. Not to mention there are several JHPs that outperform those given but that's a red herring here.

The data I have linked to is not "outdated" or "antiquated" unless you can provide better/newer/more complete data. Hypothesis, theories and speculations aside - that's how science works.

 

[dennishoddy]

9MM VS 45ACP will probably go on for the next few decades. If you don't or can't put that first shot in the head, plan on shooting lots more. Without a good head shot, you'll have to make sure you cause massive fluid loss before most go down. Thats for rifle's and pistol's!!

Yep. Lots of people shot with ball ammo in an AK round or a 5.56 ball round have stayed in the fight for a long time to the chagrin of the soldier shooting them.

FBI requirements of at least 10" penetration will reach the CNS of an average person with a pistol round.

Obese folks can take those rounds and stay in the game. There was an obese guy on tv in OKC a couple of years ago that got shot with a .22 in the gut. He was just standing around waiting on the LEO to take his statement. Said he had been shot with a 9mm in the past. The fat evidently stopped the bullet.

Hell, if it was Winchester white box ammo in 9mm or .40, its so low velocity, its amazing it will cycle the slide on some guns.

 

[Shadowrider]

The FN 5.7 should get consideration, im bettin it wont.

Did some reading and now I'm not so sure. I've never really paid any attention to this caliber and really know nothing about it. Seems to be that it was developed specifically to replace 9mm NATO and some 40 countries are using it. Interesting little round, I'd like to see some extended ballistics testing on it to see if it really performs like they say. One thing is for sure though, if FN wants a contract they are gonna have to do some real work on the unit cost, that alone may nix it for the ARMY.