Army wants to dump the M9?

[JD8]

The data I have linked to is not "outdated" or "antiquated" unless you can provide better/newer/more complete data. Hypothesis, theories and speculations aside - that's how science works.

Sure it is. One just has to apply a little critical thinking, I'd also like to add incomplete as a description to said link. Ballistic gel doesn't represent the body accurately as a whole. Naturally, it's a start, but definitely not complete in terms of addressing variables. Fackler was always big proponent of crush areas being the significant wounding factor of handguns, he never defined that critical period pertaining to temporary cavity as to where it translates to anything significant in wounding potential. Why is that? Is it linear? or why does that critical period create a threshold in which tissue is damaged?

 

[dennishoddy]

Ballistic gel doesn't represent the body accurately as a whole.

Ballistic gel is worthless in describing real world wound channels and penetration. Many lives have been saved by cell phones, obesity, a button, badge and ribs.

The only way ballistic gel could get even close to real penetration is if it accurately represented the real human anatomy with all of its parts.

Ballistic gel is a method developed by ammo company's to sell ammo.

It no way demonstrates true real world bullets when they travel through different levels of flesh, bone, and internal organs.

 

[aestus]

Brass Fetcher did a video on simulated shot lines through skin, bone, muscle, ect. This is about the closest thing to a simulation next to building a synthetic human and shooting at it or actually shooting a human cadaver.

Here's his comprehensive look at the effects of gunshots to the chest, pelvis and leg bone using bone, lung, heart and muscle tissue simulant.

Ammo used in the test:

9mm M882 FMJ (US Military uses this. Equivalent of a +P+ round)
9mm Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot
45ACP CCI 230gr FMJ
45ACP Hornady 230gr +P XTP JHP
223REM Federal 55gr TSX
223REM M193 55gr FMJ
12 Gauge Winchester 00 'military grade' buckshot


Here's his commentary explaining the video and process and findings. Short story is there is no real difference between 9mm or .45acp hollowpoint or fmj.

It's a long video, but worth watching every second of it. The chest shots were very interesting. The beginning tests are into the simulated girdle. Fast forward to 7:10 mark for the simulated chest test.

 

[Junior Bonner]

Thanks brother. his memorial page is here: http://www.odmp.org/officer/9176-deputy-sheriff-cleo-meeks

For some reason the photo is not correct, and either my recollection of the story is incorrect or he was actually shot twice. What I am sure of was the caliber of the weapon used.

Deputy Meeks was shot and killed while serving an arrest warrant.

At about 8 P.M. he was assisting a Kiowa County deputy sheriff in serving an arrest warrant on a 19 year old man for narcotics. As the deputies approached the house the young man's father opened fire on the deputies, wounding both. Deputy Meeks was shot in the head and chest. The target of the arrest warrant dragged the wounded deputy to safety and called police and medical assistance, but he died before help could arrive. The Kiowa County deputy survived his wounds. The suspect was arrested for the deputy's murder.

The suspect was convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to life on December 11, 1967.

It is my understanding that my uncle knew the family of the suspect being served which is why he was along for the service.

The correct picture and a little more to the story can be found here:http://www.oklemem.com/Agencies/Washita County Sheriffs Office.htm

Third photo down.

That was a real tragedy. Prayers sent for your uncle. He was a good man.

 

[Junior Bonner]

Brass Fetcher did a video on simulated shot lines through skin, bone, muscle, ect. This is about the closest thing to a simulation next to building a synthetic human and shooting at it or actually shooting a human cadaver.

Here's his comprehensive look at the effects of gunshots to the chest, pelvis and leg bone using bone, lung, heart and muscle tissue simulant.

Ammo used in the test:

9mm M882 FMJ (US Military uses this. Equivalent of a +P+ round)
9mm Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot
45ACP CCI 230gr FMJ
45ACP Hornady 230gr +P XTP JHP
223REM Federal 55gr TSX
223REM M193 55gr FMJ
12 Gauge Winchester 00 'military grade' buckshot


Here's his commentary explaining the video and process and findings. Short story is there is no real difference between 9mm or .45acp hollowpoint or fmj.

It's a long video, but worth watching every second of it. The chest shots were very interesting. The beginning tests are into the simulated girdle. Fast forward to 7:10 mark for the simulated chest test.

Good video.

 

[Junior Bonner]

Your prolly right. Like I said IMO, its about firepower. If im a soldier and fightin with a pistol im wanting capacity and reliability. The FN 5.7 should get consideration, im bettin it wont.

In fact I have waffled back and forth on getting one of these for about two years. It's like a .22 Hornet on steroids.

 

[Lurker66]

Did some reading and now I'm not so sure. I've never really paid any attention to this caliber and really know nothing about it. Seems to be that it was developed specifically to replace 9mm NATO and some 40 countries are using it. Interesting little round, I'd like to see some extended ballistics testing on it to see if it really performs like they say. One thing is for sure though, if FN wants a contract they are gonna have to do some real work on the unit cost, that alone may nix it for the ARMY.

I think your right. Itd also help to have a catchy name and maybe get an American pistol maker on board.

20 rounds in your hands with the ability to penetrate body armor, I could vote for that.

 

[Lurker66]

In fact I have waffled back and forth on getting one of these for about two years. It's like a .22 Hornet on steroids.

The 5.7 pistol I shot over July4th was pretty cool. A good friend has a 5.7 AR, we may get to stretch it out on coyotes this fall.

 

[JD8]

Brass Fetcher did a video on simulated shot lines through skin, bone, muscle, ect. This is about the closest thing to a simulation next to building a synthetic human and shooting at it or actually shooting a human cadaver.

Here's his comprehensive look at the effects of gunshots to the chest, pelvis and leg bone using bone, lung, heart and muscle tissue simulant.

Ammo used in the test:

9mm M882 FMJ (US Military uses this. Equivalent of a +P+ round)
9mm Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot
45ACP CCI 230gr FMJ
45ACP Hornady 230gr +P XTP JHP
223REM Federal 55gr TSX
223REM M193 55gr FMJ
12 Gauge Winchester 00 'military grade' buckshot


Here's his commentary explaining the video and process and findings. Short story is there is no real difference between 9mm or .45acp hollowpoint or fmj.

It's a long video, but worth watching every second of it. The chest shots were very interesting. The beginning tests are into the simulated girdle. Fast forward to 7:10 mark for the simulated chest test.

Thanks for posting this, great video.

 

[OKCShooter]

Brass Fetcher did a video on simulated shot lines through skin, bone, muscle, ect. This is about the closest thing to a simulation next to building a synthetic human and shooting at it or actually shooting a human cadaver.

Here's his comprehensive look at the effects of gunshots to the chest, pelvis and leg bone using bone, lung, heart and muscle tissue simulant.

Ammo used in the test:

9mm M882 FMJ (US Military uses this. Equivalent of a +P+ round)
9mm Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot
45ACP CCI 230gr FMJ
45ACP Hornady 230gr +P XTP JHP
223REM Federal 55gr TSX
223REM M193 55gr FMJ
12 Gauge Winchester 00 'military grade' buckshot


Here's his commentary explaining the video and process and findings. Short story is there is no real difference between 9mm or .45acp hollowpoint or fmj.

It's a long video, but worth watching every second of it. The chest shots were very interesting. The beginning tests are into the simulated girdle. Fast forward to 7:10 mark for the simulated chest test.

This can't be true...this thread has already proven that .45 is 1 shot and they're down for good!