Sig Sauer P365

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APH Tactical

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I think, with the lessons learned from the P320, this gun will be perfect.

I hate to sound the pessimist Steel, but I don't think we can count on that.
First and foremost, this is a new product. One that was not developed overnight and was most likely near completion when the FIRST p320 issues arose. Additionally, this is a completely different platform, so though a couple very minor components might be the same, the dimensionality in which those components interact with one another is completely different. In my opinion, I think us hoping in this way would be like thinking that since a car manufacture had issues with the suspension on one of their SUVs, that there should not be any issues with the engine, transmission, electronics, or suspension on their new sports car.
I think, truly, their problem lies in their lack of a quality 6sigma specialist involved in their R&D/QC processes, and until/unless that is remedied, we can't count on that perfection. Many other German companies have absolutely no problem murdering their products in R&D to find every possible point of failure prior to production enabling them to do things like arrogantly change their motto to "Das beste oder nicht!"(The best, or nothing). But Sig(screwing the pooch yet again) released their "fix" to the drop-safe issue and that produced a whole gamut of other reliability issues, which once again points the finger at their 6sigma guy that's too scarred to tell his boss that they are testing as fast as they can but need more time, and a company that would rather push out a firearm-related product that's been dropped a bunch of times but has only had a couple thousand rounds through it.
I do agree with the opinion that another hard hit would be devastating for them. Even beyond drop testing, the P320 is having some pretty major issues in the Army's testing for its new sidearm. Everything from ejecting live ammo to a pretty crappy 75% reliability rate with standard ball ammunition, which is of course an average of 3.75 failures per 15rd magazine. Think on that for a second... You grab your pistol and take 2 100rd boxes to the range to get some training in and experience 50 FAILURES!!! Glock is actually filling to have Sig kicked out of trials for failing even the most basic functionality testing, and if the Army drops them, that's going to be a massively public embarrassment that will undoubtedly hurt future gun sales out of their company across the board, because let's face it a gun that never made it to D.O.D. trials is one thing, but not many guys want a firearm that was tested by the Army and rejected because when put to the test it proved itself to be unreliable; and in those same minds, the reliability of ALL other Sig products must now be called into question.
It's 2018, and guys have no problem breaking a $500 pistol to pieces on YouTube for the world to see just for a few views(don't forget to like and subscribe) these companies should be doing the same but on a much larger scale. It really doesn't take a coluj edjumucation to figure out that it's less expensive to run 50 pistols into the ground, make fixes and do it all over again, than it is to stop production, go BACK into R&D, make changes, issue recalls, and ship customer guns, before trying to word your public statement in a manner that has the fewest people running away from your future products.
Every firearm's manufacture has its loyal followers, (with H&K loyalists generally being the most intelligent of course) and many guys stay loyal to their first gun company if it doesn't give them any issues and they don't have a bunch of randoms coming up to them at the range to ask how they can trust that gun. But this drama is losing those would-be repeat customers, because many newcomers to the Gun World after hearing all of the issues are not going to trust any gun that says "Sig" on it. Instead (Steelfingers) they're going to grab Glock with a big "X" on it(lol) and when they're ready for their second gun, we will see them on this forum asking, "should I go with another Glock or a (insert every other gun company here), giving Glock a 50/50 shot at their repeat business right out of the gate.

But don't worry, I'll do my best to persuade them to some other German firearms manufacturer capable of producing guns that can survive a 50,000rd torture test with only 2 FTFs while being cleaned only 7 times! (If only some company with products like this existed, that CNC-cut its pistols from billet Superman flesh and carved their firing pins from Harry Potter's wand)

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Sig, I actually want both the 320 and 365, I'd just prefer to maintain a low expectation and be pleasantly surprised with a new weapon system that functions as promised from the jump.

And HK if you're listening and decide to make direct competition for this gun, I'll pay anything up to and including one of my children for it! But not my firstborn. No no, you get the 3 year old that eats crayons and likes to play in the dirt, "looking for ringworms!"
 
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NikatKimber

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I hate to sound the pessimist Steel, but I don't think we can count on that.
First and foremost, this is a new product. One that was not developed overnight and was most likely near completion when the FIRST p320 issues arose. Additionally, this is a completely different platform, so though a couple very minor components might be the same, the dimensionality in which those components interact with one another is completely different. In my opinion, I think us hoping in this way would be like thinking that since a car manufacture had issues with the suspension on one of their SUVs, that there should not be any issues with the engine, transmission, electronics, or suspension on their new sports car.
I think, truly, their problem lies in their lack of a quality 6sigma specialist involved in their R&D/QC processes, and until/unless that is remedied, we can't count on that perfection. Many other German companies have absolutely no problem murdering their products in R&D to find every possible point of failure prior to production enabling them to do things like arrogantly change their motto to "Das beste oder nicht!"(The best, or nothing). But Sig(screwing the pooch yet again) released their "fix" to the drop-safe issue and that produced a whole gamut of other reliability issues, which once again points the finger at their 6sigma guy that's too scarred to tell his boss that they are testing as fast as they can but need more time, and a company that would rather push out a firearm-related product that's been dropped a bunch of times but has only had a couple thousand rounds through it.
I do agree with the opinion that another hard hit would be devastating for them. Even beyond drop testing, the P320 is having some pretty major issues in the Army's testing for its new sidearm. Everything from ejecting live ammo to a pretty crappy 75% reliability rate with standard ball ammunition, which is of course an average of 3.75 failures per 15rd magazine. Think on that for a second... You grab your pistol and take 2 100rd boxes to the range to get some training in and experience 50 FAILURES!!! Glock is actually filling to have Sig kicked out of trials for failing even the most basic functionality testing, and if the Army drops them, that's going to be a massively public embarrassment that will undoubtedly hurt future gun sales out of their company across the board, because let's face it a good that never made it to D.O.D. trials is one thing, but not many guys want a firearm that was tested by the Army and rejected because when put to the test it proved itself to be unreliable; and in those same minds, the reliability of ALL other Sig products must more be called into question.
It's 2018, and guys have no problem breaking a $500 pistol to pieces on YouTube for the world to see just for a few views(don't forget to like and subscribe) these companies should be doing the same but on a much larger scale. It really doesn't take a coluj edjumucation to figure out that it's less expensive to run 50 pistols into the ground, make fixes and do it all over again, than it is to stop production, go NACK into R&D, make changes, issue recalls, and ship customer guns, before trying to word your public statement in a manner that has the fewest people running away from your future products.
Every firearm's manufacture has its loyal followers, (with H&K loyalists generally being the most intelligent of course) and many guys stay loyal to their first gun company if it doesn't give them any issues and they don't have a bunch of randoms coming up to them at the range to ask how they can trust that gun. But this drama is losing those would-be repeat customers, because many newcomers to the Gun World after hearing all of the issues are not going to trust any gun that says "Sig" on it. Instead (Steelfingers) they're going to grab Glock with a big "X" on it(lol) and when they're ready for their second gun, we will see them on this forum asking, "should I go with another Glock or a (insert every other gun company here), giving Glock a 50/50 shot at their repeat business right out of the gate.

But don't worry, I'll do my best to persuade them to some other German firearms manufacturer capable of producing guns that can survive a 50,000rd torture test with only 2 FTFs while being cleaned only 7 times! (If only some company with products like this existed, that CNC-cut its pistols from billet Superman flesh and carved their firing pins from Harry Potter's wand)

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Sig, I actually want both the 320 and 365, I'd just prefer to maintain a low expectation and be pleasantly surprised with a new weapon system that functions as promised from the jump.

And HK if you're listening and decide to make direct competition for this gun, I'll pay anything up to and including one of my children for it! But not my firstborn. No no, you get the 3 year old that eats crayons and likes to play in the dirt, "looking for ringworms!"

You read the report wrong. It's not a 75% reliability rating. It's a 75% probability of finishing a 96hr mission without a stoppage. Also, not "failures". Most of the stoppages were failure to lock open. I've had the same issue they describe on many guns (my Glock 19 included) where I interfere with the slide lock due to a high grip.

Even including the slide lock stoppages, the worst example still went 229 average rounds between it happening. So it still would be only once every dozen mags.

See @JD8's post here:
https://www.okshooters.com/posts/3078391/

Not a Sig loyalist, I've been holding off trying out a P320 while all this gets sorted, but it's not near as bad as you made it out to be.
 

JD8

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You read the report wrong. It's not a 75% reliability rating. It's a 75% probability of finishing a 96hr mission without a stoppage. Also, not "failures". Most of the stoppages were failure to lock open. I've had the same issue they describe on many guns (my Glock 19 included) where I interfere with the slide lock due to a high grip.

Even including the slide lock stoppages, the worst example still went 229 average rounds between it happening. So it still would be only once every dozen mags.

See @JD8's post here:
https://www.okshooters.com/posts/3078391/

Not a Sig loyalist, I've been holding off trying out a P320 while all this gets sorted, but it's not near as bad as you made it out to be.

There's a TON of fake news out there about it. If anyone actually takes the time to read the report, it's not a huge deal. Not nearly what people make it out to be. I surely hope no naysayers out there own a Beretta or an AR.
 

APH Tactical

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You read the report wrong. It's not a 75% reliability rating. It's a 75% probability of finishing a 96hr mission without a stoppage. Also, not "failures". Most of the stoppages were failure to lock open. I've had the same issue they describe on many guns (my Glock 19 included) where I interfere with the slide lock due to a high grip.

Even including the slide lock stoppages, the worst example still went 229 average rounds between it happening. So it still would be only once every dozen mags.

See @JD8's post here:
https://www.okshooters.com/posts/3078391/

Not a Sig loyalist, I've been holding off trying out a P320 while all this gets sorted, but it's not near as bad as you made it out to be.

Ouch Nikat! I guess i should have read this report myself prior to running my mouth instead of lazily skimming through one of the random firearms news feeds sent to my phone. Thank you for setting me straight on this one, and your're right, is a huge difference between a 75% chance of going "bang" when you pull the trigger and a 75% chance of lasting 2k rounds without hard stoppages. You gentlemen and Sig have my apologies. But... I think this is also going to show how much of a blow the reputation of Sig is taking over this, because just like playing that game "telephone" as a kid, details in the story get changed along the way. The details in positive stories get changed to promote the positive theme and details in negative stories get changed to become well... more negative.

The simplest facts though are:
1. The gun had safety issues.
2. They fixed the issue.
3. The fix decreased the reliability of the weapon system.

No matter how the story is told, these details will be there and won't be helping Sig sales. I wish they were a publicly traded company so we could see what "The Smart Money" thought of the company now as opposed to when the Army first announced they were going with the P320s, though I'm sure the release of the 365 would calm investors a bit.
But again, may God help them if the 365 falls on its face. A gun this innovative will be in thousands of homes before the first people start getting any REAL(+1500rds) trigger-time behind the platform.
 

steelfingers

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Good or bad, I'll bet it's setting pre order sales records. I'm ok jumping in on a new gun. I did my research and if there is an issue, Sig will do everything to make me happy. Their life is dependant on it.
I'm happy but I may or may not be on prescriptions meds....:hypnotize:
 

APH Tactical

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Again guys, don't get me wrong, I can't wait to get my hands on the gun, I'm just waiting on you guys and the rest of the world to put some rounds down range in it and let all of us waiting in the shadows know that it's all clear.

And thanks JD8, I wish they had attached pictures of the triggers that splintered during testing after the drop-safe fix. It would be interesting to see exactly what they were talking about as I can't recall ever having heard of anything similar happening on other platforms.

But I haven't heard of anything bad yet about the 365, other than it might be a little picky about which lubricant it likes, leading into a failure to go into battery (FTF), but this is easily mitigated by getting to know your gun, which is obviously crucial with any weapon system you own that is more than just a range toy.
 
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1911master

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Ok, I just got to hold the Sig 365. I did not purchase it because well the price. The action is very nice. It is small for a 10 plus one semi auto. But for the price I will wait. It won't replace my Glock 26, XDs 4.0 9mm or my Kahr CW9. But I am liking what I am seeing. Very nice pistol.
 

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