100 years down the drain

[ripnbst]

3) 338 Lapua - that's a bad mofo. Honest replacement for 45-70: same recoil, same bullet weight - but shoves it WAAAAAAAY out there. It's not really in competition with "medium bore" rifles - it creates a bridge to heavy machine gun cartridges. The only thing I can say - how often do you need 1000ft/lb at 1500 yards - just call in the air strike

Is this, or is this not admitting advancement? You said yourself that its a cartridge that takes everything awesome about the .45-70 and makes it possible at 1500 yds, never before possible. I'd say thats one hell of an advancement.

 

[NikatKimber]

I could be happy if the high capacity polymer pistol was never invented.

That's not what I'm sticking around here for. But I do like my Glock.

 

[MoBoost]

Is this, or is this not admitting advancement? You said yourself that its a cartridge that takes everything awesome about the .45-70 and makes it possible at 1500 yds, never before possible. I'd say thats one hell of an advancement.

Is 338 Lapua an advancement over straight wall rimmed black powder cartridge .... I sure hope so. I can't really argue against 338. Even considering that it's a neck down of case designed in 1911, it did everything I was hoping for: substantially less recoil and more energy down the range even over 416 Rigby. Yes, 338L is awesome.

But, here is where I don't give up easy: take 7x57 and scale it 22% up.

SPOILER ALERT:
Caliber: 340
Case length: 69mm
Base: .572"
Alpha 40deg

Well if you consider "bigger is better" - than it is definite "advancement"; I call this "imitation is the highest form of flattery".

 

[MoBoost]

Here is another fun exercise - take 7x57 and scale it down 21% - you get another 20th century GREAT!

SPOILER ALERT
Caliber: 224
Case length: 45mm
Base: .376

I LOVE THIS GAME!!!

 

[HMFIC]

How about .500 S&W Magnum. You can push a 500gr bullet at 1500fps generating 2500ftlbs of energy... from a handgun.

 

[HMFIC]

Here is another fun exercise - take 7x57 and scale it down 21% - you get another 20th century GREAT!

SPOILER ALERT
Caliber: 224
Case length: 45mm
Base: .376

I LOVE THIS GAME!!!

That's too easy... you end up with 5.56 NATO

 

[ripnbst]

I think you need a smaller brush. You are making such broad strokes it almost makes me think that debating with you will frustrate me, as it is starting. You take a ford focus scale it up 53% and you get a BMW 7 series? If you scale up a 4 cylinder by 100% you get the V8. Please, there are things that are worlds apart that you are trying to say are very similar. The point is one can do something the other can't, and more comfortably to boot. Adding fictional percentage increases or decreases starts and ends there, you are doing nothing more than fictional mathematics.

 

[HMFIC]

I'd say that the limits on what cartridges can be developed are inherent to what there is to work with. The modern cartridge is dependant upon the general qualities of the firearms they are fired within. To this end, what was said earlier about metallury plays a huge role in the firearm's strength. Outside of that, the projectile development is where most if not all of the gains have been made. We can fire lighter, smaller bullets much faster than before without concern for them blowing apart mid-air such as was the case 100 years ago. We can mass produce higher quality and tolorance in bullets. We have computers to give us the absolute best designs for any given ballistic scenario. In some respects, there have been so many different cartridges attempted over the years, that we've really narrowed the field in the last 50 years. Perfection of the modern cartridge design is the phase we're in now and there likely won't be any further shocking developments there.

 

[MoBoost]

I think you need a smaller brush. You are making such broad strokes it almost makes me think that debating with you will frustrate me, as it is starting. You take a ford focus scale it up 53% and you get a BMW 7 series? If you scale up a 4 cylinder by 100% you get the V8. Please, there are things that are worlds apart that you are trying to say are very similar. The point is one can do something the other can't, and more comfortably to boot. Adding fictional percentage increases or decreases starts and ends there, you are doing nothing more than fictional mathematics.

I can take a picture of 338 lapua, 7x57 and .223 - without something to tell you the scale - you will not be able to tell which one it is (223 has slightly different alpha); throw in any other cartridge in there and it will stick out. What it means that there is an optimal caliber/base/length relationship, and apparently Mauser nailed it in early 1890s. If you look at my math 338 Lapua is within 1% off dimensions and 223 is even less - 1% is rather slim brush. I didn't fudge the numbers - what you see is what you get.

My point was - 7x57 was a no-compromise pure design, everything else that came after it was a deviation from perfection and compromise with loss of efficiency and diminishing results.

Let me give you an example:
1) Lets shorten it - we get 7mm-08, with same loads both cartridges run same speeds, but 7mm-08 does it at 15%-20% HIGHER pressure - inefficiency.
2) Lets lengthen it - we get 280, with same loads pressure will be the same but 280 will be 10% behind on speed. Yes you can push 280 over 7x57, but you'll gain 5% speed with 20% more powder - inefficiency.

The further you deviate - the worse your results are: like 7mm mag - 50% more powder for 10% gain.

 

[MoBoost]

How about .500 S&W Magnum. You can push a 500gr bullet at 1500fps generating 2500ftlbs of energy... from a handgun.

By outdoing .454, 500sw has become the most outstanding big bore handgun cartridge ever made - too bad it was designed in 2003 and not a rifle cartridge, therefore keeps my topic alive