100 years down the drain

[ldp4570]

MoBoost, I've always been very pleased with 7X57MM. Mild of recoil, fairly flat shooting out to 250+yards. No safe queen here. Mine has served several seasons of Deer hunting, an has anchored a couple of wild pigs. It is a rifle that will remain with till the end. No I have never felt out/under gunned with her!!

I would be very happy with Ruger if they would chamber in this caliber in a left handed bolt-action version.

 

[HMFIC]

MoBoost, I've always been very pleased with 7X57MM. Mild of recoil, fairly flat shooting out to 250+yards. No safe queen here. Mine has served several seasons of Deer hunting, an has anchored a couple of wild pigs. It is a rifle that will remain with till the end. No I have never felt out/under gunned with her!!

I would be very happy with Ruger if they would chamber in this caliber in a left handed bolt-action version.

That's an awesome rifle LDP.

It reminds me of how back in the day, gunsmiths were putting old 7x57 and 8x57 Mauser actions into short Fajen mannlicher stocks and shipping them up to Alaska as fast as they could. Makes a most excellent brush or stand rifle in that configuration and still will pack away everything you can lay a bead on in this continent and most others...

I wish I had a pile of them.

Mo, I will surrender to your statement about 7x57 being pretty much the king of it all and still reigns today in the terms that you've set forth. It's a helluva caliber and besides, how are you going to get any better than German design?

 

[JamesP82]

I can take a picture of 338 lapua, 7x57 and .223 - without something to tell you the scale - you will not be able to tell which one it is (223 has slightly different alpha); throw in any other cartridge in there and it will stick out. What it means that there is an optimal caliber/base/length relationship, and apparently Mauser nailed it in early 1890s. If you look at my math 338 Lapua is within 1% off dimensions and 223 is even less - 1% is rather slim brush. I didn't fudge the numbers - what you see is what you get.

How about the 338 EDGE rifles that are out performing the Lapuas?

 

[ripnbst]

If you look at my math 338 Lapua is within 1% off dimensions and 223 is even less - 1% is rather slim brush. I didn't fudge the numbers - what you see is what you get.

I wasn't doubting your math, simply saying that saying "add or subtract X%" is making broad strokes.

My point was - 7x57 was a no-compromise pure design, everything else that came after it was a deviation from perfection and compromise with loss of efficiency and diminishing results.

Let me give you an example:
1) Lets shorten it - we get 7mm-08, with same loads both cartridges run same speeds, but 7mm-08 does it at 15%-20% HIGHER pressure - inefficiency.You are taking the same explosion and putting it in a smaller volume, of course you will see higher pressure
2) Lets lengthen it - we get 280, with same loads pressure will be the same but 280 will be 10% behind on speed. Yes you can push 280 over 7x57, but you'll gain 5% speed with 20% more powder - inefficiency.I think what you are proposing is not physically possible for the same reason the first scenario is. Same explosion larger volume=lower pressure which is where you're getting your lower velocity.

The further you deviate - the worse your results are: like 7mm mag - 50% more powder for 10% gain.

I will concede that there is a point where the two curves cross between recoil and velocity and the 7x57 is pretty much it. It is essentially the point of diminishing returns if you will. However, in order to get more performance you need to add more powder(duh), as you attempt to get more and more velocity it requires that much more powder(in a non-linear fashion). There are certain things you cant overcome or deny and that is what is physically possible and what it takes to accomplish it.

 

[MoBoost]

1) I'm glad we were able to keep this civilized, even though I kept throwing pokes and some of the beloved cartridges.

2) I'm really not a "fan-boy" - I don't even own a 7x57 rifle, but the more I crunch the numbers the more I end up with the formula for optimal energy VS delivery cartridge dimensions

X (cal in .001 inch)
0.2 * X (length in mm)
1.66 * X (base in .001 inch)
0.21 * X (volume in grains H2O)

And here is the list of cartridged that fit it:

224x45/373 dead on 223 Rem
243x49/403 ????
257x51/426 dead on 25 Remington
264x52/438 very close to 260 Rem
277x55/460 ???
285x57/473 7x57
308x62/511 close to 30-06
325x65/539 close to 8mm-06 and looks like a better match per case volume
338x68/561 dead on 338 lapua

3) I love ridicules cartridges like 264wsm and 300 RUM, I love all military cartridges despite their draw backs, and I really like archaic cartridges like 30-30 and 45-70. However, I draw a line between what I like and what is logically optimal.

4) *hopefully this will spark some argument.
There seems to be a taboo to say that one cartridge is better than the other. I think it's fantastic that we got 100s to choose from, but when someone asks - what would be a good first deer rifle - there is a CORRECT answer!
And it is 260rem or 7mm-08 - everything else is just won't deliver the goods as efficient. Either one will take deer at 600 yards COMFORTABLY.

Lets see some other common suggestions:

270 - 260 ballistics, 50% more kick, 10% more energy ....
30-06 - over a foot over extra drop at 600, 50% more kick, but with VLD delivers 30-40% more energy
308 - over a foot extra drop at 600, same kick, same energy

 

[NikatKimber]

1) I'm glad we were able to keep this civilized, even though I kept throwing pokes and some of the beloved cartridges.
...

Me too.

And I'm going to have to plot some numbers and do some math on this. Hmmm...

 

[MoBoost]

How about the 338 EDGE rifles that are out performing the Lapuas?

Kinda hard to compare a standardized cartridge VS a wildcat with no reliable load/pressure/velocity data.

 

[rebelracer79]

Ok, even tho you foil most of my arguments I will bite again, You can do all the scientific number crunching you want but what it all boils down to, there is NO perfect do all cartridge, if there was, there would not be hunderds of designs. I havn't done much research on it, never owned or shot one, and most likely I never will simply because I can buy 3-4 times the ammount of .308 for the same price. and I'd imagin that is a big part of why it isn't more popular, its anyones guess why some rounds die out and others thrive.

 

[MoBoost]

Ok, even tho you foil most of my arguments I will bite again, You can do all the scientific number crunching you want but what it all boils down to, there is NO perfect do all cartridge, if there was, there would not be hunderds of designs. I havn't done much research on it, never owned or shot one, and most likely I never will simply because I can buy 3-4 times the ammount of .308 for the same price. and I'd imagin that is a big part of why it isn't more popular, its anyones guess why some rounds die out and others thrive.

1) You didn't really have an argument - just listed some cartridges, please be more specific.

2) Other than cooking diner and towing a boat - how is 7x57 not a perfect do-all? So it's not a "varmint" or "anti-material" cartridge - but it does hell of job doing everything in between. But if you want to cover everything - 7x57JR (aka .223), 7x57 and 7x57SR (aka 338) will take care of pretty much everything!!! LOL

3) Yes it is much easier and cheaper to get .308 NATO than Imperial Germany 7x57, but it doesn't change the fact that 7x57 will deliver more energy for the same power burnt and recoil generated; 7x57 is a better cartridge by design.

 

[HMFIC]

7x57 Ackley Improved.