A question for all Members of OSA

[yukonjack]

You can take the lead on that one. The ole "massive breakdown in the moral fiber of our society" wasn't an issue in Bath Township, Michigan, 'long about 1927, was it?

Son, 1927 has been over a long time now. If you can't see what's happened to our society in the past 20 years it's not my fault.

 

[yukonjack]

The only thing that will attack the massive breakdown in the moral fiber of our society is a miracle, or the second coming. Now, what do you suggest that teachers do in their classrooms to survive an active shooter?

I'd say the teachers did exactly what they were supposed to do. Now add in an armed campus police officer and that'll swing things the other way. The legislators, the general public, the local school boards, will never agree to allow 2nd and 3rd grade teachers to have loaded, accessible firearms in the class room. Focus you energy on solutions that will really be acceptable.

 

[Okie4570]

I'd say the teachers did exactly what they were supposed to do. Now add in an armed campus police officer and that'll swing things the other way. The legislators, the general public, the local school boards, will never agree to allow 2nd and 3rd grade teachers to have loaded, accessible firearms in the class room. Focus you energy on solutions that will really be acceptable.

I agree, they did what they were told to do, and they died as a result. Teachers told to gather students and hide, still gunned down. Principal and counselor told to rush the perp.........they died as a result. People kept dying in car crashes too...........they improved the safety, by adding air bags and crush zones and I realize that those changes didn't happen overnight. If a LEO would be assigned to each school, then I'm not even having this conversation, there's just no way small schools and school districts in OK can afford it. I just don't think being armed with pepper spray and being told to take it like a man(not by you personally) is acceptable.

 

[okiebryan]

JB, how would Oklahoma law stand against Federal? Commerce clause? I am ignorant.

Being licensed by the state where the school is located exempts you from the Federal GFSZA. What you have to change to do this is Oklahoma TITLE 21 § 1280.1 POSSESSION OF FIREARM ON SCHOOL PROPERTY, which is currently a felony.

 

[Glocktogo]

I'd say the teachers did exactly what they were supposed to do. Now add in an armed campus police officer and that'll swing things the other way. The legislators, the general public, the local school boards, will never agree to allow 2nd and 3rd grade teachers to have loaded, accessible firearms in the class room. Focus you energy on solutions that will really be acceptable.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you. We've got 5 pages of people on board with the idea and willing to help, but you offer nothing constructive in the way of support. What sort of volunteer services to you provide to your community?

Things are only impossible when nattering naybobs of negativity like you convince people they are. You cannot say that local school boards will never allow it. You can say your opinion is such, but you do not speak for the school boards. You do not speak for the legislators and you do not speak for us. You speak for yourself alone. Now that we've dispensed with your negativity, let's move on to something meaningful.

The GFSZA was designed to prohibit individuals from entering a school zone with a gun in an unauthorized manner. It does not prohibit carry of a gun in a school zone 100%

(q)
(1) The Congress finds and declares that-
(A) crime, particularly crime involving drugs and guns, is a pervasive, nationwide problem;
(B) crime at the local level is exacerbated by the interstate movement of drugs, guns, and criminal gangs;
(C) firearms and ammunition move easily in interstate commerce and have been found in increasing numbers in and around schools, as documented in numerous hearings in both the Committee on the Judiciary the House of Representatives and the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate;
(D) in fact, even before the sale of a firearm, the gun, its component parts, ammunition, and the raw materials from which they are made have considerably moved in interstate commerce;
(E) while criminals freely move from State to State, ordinary citizens and foreign visitors may fear to travel to or through certain parts of the country due to concern about violent crime and gun violence, and parents may decline to send their children to school for the same reason;
(F) the occurrence of violent crime in school zones has resulted in a decline in the quality of education in our country;
(G) this decline in the quality of education has an adverse impact on interstate commerce and the foreign commerce of the United States;
(H) States, localities, and school systems find it almost impossible to handle gun-related crime by themselves-even States, localities, and school systems that have made strong efforts to prevent, detect, and punish gun-related crime find their efforts unavailing due in part to the failure or inability of other States or localities to take strong measures; and
(I) the Congress has the power, under the interstate commerce clause and other provisions of the Constitution, to enact measures to ensure the integrity and safety of the Nation’s schools by enactment of this subsection.

(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm-
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is-
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.
(3)
(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), it shall be unlawful for any person, knowingly or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the person knows is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the discharge of a firearm-
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) as part of a program approved by a school in the school zone, by an individual who is participating in the program;
(iii) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual; or
(iv) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity.
(4) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as preempting or preventing a State or local government from enacting a statute establishing gun free school zones as provided in this subsection.

Pay careful attention to the sections I've bolded. These are the sections that allow schools to hire armed security and police to patrol the schools. The language is not exclusive to armed guards or LEO's. A school can enter into a contract with anyone they wish, so long as it complies with any applicable local and state laws as well.

You could commission a school employee as a LEO with a very narrow and restrictive jurisdiction and police powers. The precedent is already in wide use and acceptance on the federal level. Just research the Federal Flight Deck Officer program. They are fully commissioned and empowered federal law enforcement officers, with a tiny jurisdiction and restrictive rules of engagement (cockpit only). You could contract school employees to provide armed security, but each employee would have to be CLEET licensed and bonded as an armed security officer.

Remember guys, nothing is impossible if you set your mind to it. I support the concept here, but I have to tell you that it has to be presented perfectly and it needs to be highly structured and narrow in scope. Otherwise the odds of success are significantly lower. I'd implore you to ignore what YJ is saying and press forward on all fronts, not just those someone tells you are the only way.

Semper Fi!

 

[Glocktogo]

Being licensed by the state where the school is located exempts you from the Federal GFSZA. What you have to change to do this is Oklahoma TITLE 21 § 1280.1 POSSESSION OF FIREARM ON SCHOOL PROPERTY, which is currently a felony.

Agreed, but we need to look at the exemptions closely:

§21-1280.1.


§21-1280.1.

POSSESSION OF FIREARM ON SCHOOL PROPERTY

A. It shall be unlawful for any person, except a peace officer or
other person authorized by the board of education of that district or
governing body for any public or private school, to have in his or her
possession on any public or private school property or while in any
school bus or vehicle used by any school for transportation of
students or teachers any firearm or weapon designated in Section 1272
of this title.

B. "School property" means any publicly or privately owned property
held for purposes of elementary, secondary or vocational-technical
education, and shall not include property owned by public school
districts or private educational entities where such property is
leased or rented to an individual or corporation and used for purposes
other than educational.

C. A gun or knife designed for hunting or fishing purposes kept in a
privately owned vehicle and properly displayed or stored as required
by law, or a handgun carried in a vehicle pursuant to a valid handgun
license authorized by the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, shall not be in
violation of the provisions of this section, provided such vehicle
containing said gun or knife is driven onto school property only to
transport a student to and from school and such vehicle does not
remain unattended on school property. However, for the purposes of
participating in the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife certified hunter
training education course or any other hunting, safety or firearms
training courses, the principal or chief administrator of any public
or private school where said course is offered may authorize firearms
or other weapons to be brought onto school property and used in such
training course.

D. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall, upon
conviction, be guilty of a felony punishable by a fine not to exceed
Five Thousand Dollars ($5,000.00), and imprisonment for not more than
two (2) years. Any person convicted of violating the provisions of
this section after having been issued a concealed handgun license
pursuant to the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, Section
1290.1 et seq. of this title, shall have the license permanently
revoked and shall be liable for an administrative fine of One Hundred
Dollars ($100.00) upon a hearing and determination by the Oklahoma
State Bureau of Investigation that the person is in violation of the
provisions of this section.

The part I bolded is in line with the exemptions in the GFSZA and I believe it would be ruled to allow exactly what we're discussing here.

 

[Lurker66]

Good info JB, thanks.

 

[yukonjack]

I wholeheartedly disagree with you. We've got 5 pages of people on board with the idea and willing to help, but you offer nothing constructive in the way of support. What sort of volunteer services to you provide to your community?

Things are only impossible when nattering naybobs of negativity like you convince people they are. You cannot say that local school boards will never allow it. You can say your opinion is such, but you do not speak for the school boards. You do not speak for the legislators and you do not speak for us. You speak for yourself alone. Now that we've dispensed with your negativity, let's move on to something meaningful.

The GFSZA was designed to prohibit individuals from entering a school zone with a gun in an unauthorized manner. It does not prohibit carry of a gun in a school zone 100%



Pay careful attention to the sections I've bolded. These are the sections that allow schools to hire armed security and police to patrol the schools. The language is not exclusive to armed guards or LEO's. A school can enter into a contract with anyone they wish, so long as it complies with any applicable local and state laws as well.

You could commission a school employee as a LEO with a very narrow and restrictive jurisdiction and police powers. The precedent is already in wide use and acceptance on the federal level. Just research the Federal Flight Deck Officer program. They are fully commissioned and empowered federal law enforcement officers, with a tiny jurisdiction and restrictive rules of engagement (cockpit only). You could contract school employees to provide armed security, but each employee would have to be CLEET licensed and bonded as an armed security officer.

Remember guys, nothing is impossible if you set your mind to it. I support the concept here, but I have to tell you that it has to be presented perfectly and it needs to be highly structured and narrow in scope. Otherwise the odds of success are significantly lower. I'd implore you to ignore what YJ is saying and press forward on all fronts, not just those someone tells you are the only way.

Semper Fi!

Wild ideas and reality are two different things. The local school boards already have the ability to hire and commission their own campus police department. The framework and reglations for that already exist. It needs to be utilized more. What your proposing would take years to implement and then get through the political process. Your proposing something based on a dream. My proposal takes what is already in places and puts it to work. Go ahead and waste energy and effort if that's your choice. And I have over 16 years of serivce to my community as a reserve police officer, all volunteer, all unpaid.

 

[JB Books]

We are going to press forward. I left a message for Rep. McCullough today. We are going to use the full power of the membership of OSA to try to help get this passed. And once passed, we are going to demonstrate what responsible, patriotic gun owners will do for their communities.

As for the negative nellies, remember what Teddy Roosevelt said:


“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
― Theodore Roosevelt

 

[vvvvvvv]

Wild ideas and reality are two different things. The local school boards already have the ability to hire and commission their own campus police department. The framework and reglations for that already exist. It needs to be utilized more. What your proposing would take years to implement and then get through the political process. Your proposing something based on a dream. My proposal takes what is already in places and puts it to work. Go ahead and waste energy and effort if that's your choice.

Campus police departments result in more spending in schools that is not on educating the students.

All that needs to be done without resulting in an increase in non-educational spending by the schools is for the legislature to remove schools from the list of prohibited places and allow local school boards to adopt their own policies regarding employee carry.

Just like you wouldn't start at the max that you're willing to pay for a car or a house, you don't start at the max compromise you're willing to make when dealing with legislation. Legislators are glorified used car salesmen.