Felon as a passenger when you are carrying

[bettingpython]

Ok serious issue here, I have part time lawn business and am getting ready to take on a helper who did time for 2nd degree manslaughter. title 21 section 1283 paragrah A appears to be preclude me from allowing him in my vehicle when traveling from site to site even if I have the weapon on me under my control and not in the console or under the seat where he could access it.

A. Except as provided in subsection B of this section, it shall be unlawful
for any person convicted of any felony in any court of this state or of
another state or of the United States to have in his or her possession or
under his or her immediate control, or in any vehicle which the person
is operating, or in which the person is riding as a passenger, or at the
residence where the convicted person resides, any pistol, imitation or
homemade pistol, altered air or toy pistol, machine gun, sawed-off
shotgun or rifle, or any other dangerous or deadly firearm.

I am fully aware of the penalty portion under paragrah E. But it raises the question if it is holstered on my person then am I allowing him possesion or control of the weapon? I think the answer is no but I obviously want to protect first myself and then him from legal issues.

E. Any person having been issued a concealed handgun license pursuant
to the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act and who thereafter
knowingly or intentionally allows a convicted felon or adjudicated
delinquent or a youthful offender as prohibited by the provisions of
subsection A, C, or D of this section to possess or have control of any
pistol authorized by the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act shall, upon
conviction, be guilty of a felony punishable by a fine not to exceed Five
Thousand Dollars ($5,000.00). In addition, the person shall have the
handgun license revoked by the Oklahoma State Bureau of
Investigation after a hearing and determination that the person has
violated the provisions of this section.

I undestand LEO's are not lawyers but could you weigh in if you have had any experience dealing with this portion of the statutes. I was asked to take the guy on as a favor but I am not going to abdicate my right to carry.

 

[okie362]

If I undertsand your post correctly, you would at no time allow this person access or control of your firearm. Therefore you would be OK but as you stated, you want to make sure. I would call OSBI and get their "opinion" since it is likely you would NOT get a response from the AG.

 

[vvvvvvv]

Based on Jury Instructions for Section 1283, I believe the answer is NO if he is knowingly and willfully riding with you while you are carrying.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=81370

No person may be convicted of possessing a firearm after conviction of a felony unless the State has proved beyond a reasonable doubt each element of the crime. These elements are:

First, knowingly and willfully;

Second, possessing/(having under one's immediate control)/(having in any vehicle one operates)/(having in any vehicle in which one is riding as a passenger)/(having at the place where the defendant resides);

Third, any pistol/(imitation/homemade pistol)/(machine gun)/(sawed-off shotgun/rifle)/(dangerous/deadly firearm);

Fourth, the defendant was convicted of a felony by the [Name of Court] Court of [Name of Jurisdiction] on [Date].

 

[Burk Cornelius]

Ok serious issue here, I have part time lawn business and am getting ready to take on a helper who did time for 2nd degree manslaughter. title 21 section 1283 paragrah A appears to be preclude me from allowing him in my vehicle when traveling from site to site even if I have the weapon on me under my control and not in the console or under the seat where he could access it.

A. Except as provided in subsection B of this section, it shall be unlawful
for any person convicted of any felony in any court of this state or of
another state or of the United States to have in his or her possession or
under his or her immediate control, or in any vehicle which the person
is operating, or in which the person is riding as a passenger, or at the
residence where the convicted person resides, any pistol, imitation or
homemade pistol, altered air or toy pistol, machine gun, sawed-off
shotgun or rifle, or any other dangerous or deadly firearm.

I am fully aware of the penalty portion under paragrah E. But it raises the question if it is holstered on my person then am I allowing him possesion or control of the weapon? I think the answer is no but I obviously want to protect first myself and then him from legal issues.

E. Any person having been issued a concealed handgun license pursuant
to the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act and who thereafter
knowingly or intentionally allows a convicted felon or adjudicated
delinquent or a youthful offender as prohibited by the provisions of
subsection A, C, or D of this section to possess or have control of any
pistol authorized by the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act shall, upon
conviction, be guilty of a felony punishable by a fine not to exceed Five
Thousand Dollars ($5,000.00). In addition, the person shall have the
handgun license revoked by the Oklahoma State Bureau of
Investigation after a hearing and determination that the person has
violated the provisions of this section.

I undestand LEO's are not lawyers but could you weigh in if you have had any experience dealing with this portion of the statutes. I was asked to take the guy on as a favor but I am not going to abdicate my right to carry.

I have had this same issue come up with me and a friend of mine (convicted felon).

Section A quoted above has to do with the felon and what they are not permitted to do. In this case have a gun in his possession, allow someone to have a gun in his car or his house or ride in a car with a gun (even if it a legal carry).

Section E is what the CHL holder is not permitted to do. In this case, allow him (felon) posses or control your gun. You are not in violation of section E because you didn't allow him to possess your firearm and I personally do not think you are in violation Section A either.

HOWEVER, the convicted felon will likely GO TO JAIL. The courts REALLY frown on felons being around guns, even if they are being carried by a CHL holder.

Bottom line if you don't want your friend or employee to go to jail, don't carry around him.

Disclaimer: My opinion. Not an LEO. Not a lawyer

BC

 

[BryanDP]

Plausible deniability. You had it until you made this post.

My guess is that most people that carry have inadvertently and unkowingly had a convicted felon in their home, ridden in the car with one or somehow violated the letter of this law. I also bet a good deal of people who buy and sell guns to people they don't know have bought from or sold to a felon or someone under age.

Thought I think it's ridiculous, it seems like the law is very clear that you can't ride in the vehicle with him while you are in posession of a firearm. On the other hand, it doesn't seem like the law allows you to be prosecuted as long as he is not able to be in actual control of the weapon.

I can be pretty sure that you won't get a "go ahead" from the OSBI or the AG. You probably won't get an answer at all.

Maybe he could just follow you from job to job in another car? Or ride in the back of the truck?

 

[bettingpython]

I won't play the plausible deniability game, knowing he is a convicted felon meant I needed to research this issue for my legal safety, Ignorance of the law is no excuse or defense from prosecution, and I could not have looked an officer in the eye and lied when asked if I knew my passenger was a felon. The arrest and trial to gain an acquital for said individual would be financially crushing for him if I were to ever be stopped with him in the vehicle with me. Retaining an attorney for a felony charge is a minimum of $1500 plus whatever it would cost him to bond out.

Does he know I have a CCW and carry? The answer is honestly no so he has a defense on the grounds that he did not knowingly or intentionally ride as a passenger in my truck. But I am not going to put him in that position to begin with.

 

[BryanDP]

Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but the law doesn't require you to do a background check on people you associate with. As an employer you'll probably learn to not ask too many questions, especially when knowing the answer won't effect your decision-making process and knowing the answer could limit you.

Anyway, I guess we talked you through answering your own question. Either you don't carry a gun or he doesn't ride in the vehicle with you. If you're doing mostly local business and this guy is worth having around it might be worth taking two vehicles. It realistically shouldn't cost way too much. I certainly don't think I'd give up my right of personal protection for an employee.

Another issue is the potential liability in hiring a convicted felon to do work at private residences. I know some insurance companies have issues with it and I know a lot of customers would if they knew.

Just so we're clear, I'm really just playing devil's advocate here. Personally I think once people have done their time they shouldn't have labels placed on them and their rights restricted. If they're dangerous to society, they shouldn't be out of prison. If they are out of prison they should have all of their rights.

Kudos for trying to do the right thing.

Bryan

 

[Burk Cornelius]

I won't play the plausible deniability game, knowing he is a convicted felon meant I needed to research this issue for my legal safety, Ignorance of the law is no excuse or defense from prosecution, and I could not have looked an officer in the eye and lied when asked if I knew my passenger was a felon. The arrest and trial to gain an acquital for said individual would be financially crushing for him if I were to ever be stopped with him in the vehicle with me. Retaining an attorney for a felony charge is a minimum of $1500 plus whatever it would cost him to bond out.

Does he know I have a CCW and carry? The answer is honestly no so he has a defense on the grounds that he did not knowingly or intentionally ride as a passenger in my truck. But I am not going to put him in that position to begin with.

Sounds like you are doing the right thing, unfortunately it might mean a convicted felon won't get a second chance OR you might not carry a gun. Either way, its not good.

I want to reiterate something it sounds like you already know. YOU probably don't have anything to worry about; HE/SHE does.

 

[bettingpython]

I have a commercial property that is not open during the daytime where he will help cut. The proprerty owner has work for him after he subs for me that's how I picked him up was through this account, he has his own vehicle and won't have to travel far as he is local to where the jobs at and needs to stay after we're done cutting anyway. I do thank everyone for their replies and assistance in research. Yes he's getting a second chance. Once we finish at that account my wife and I have a couple of residentials we do so he's just a couple hours once week guy for me.

Once I made everyone involved aware of the situation we were able to work it out.

 

[jrf]

In an ideal world, I would think the intention of the law is to keep the felon away from possessing or appearing to possess a firearm. I would look at it as not wanting him riding around in a car with a bunch of bad elements that have not yet been convicted, but probably soon will be. In other words, avoid the argument "its not my gun, its his gun."

Its a lawn work job, he's not working in an armory, and both the felon and the employer are doing right by helping the felon be a productive citizen.

I believe a wealthy convicted felon could be in a vehicle or home with an armed body guard.

But then this isn't an ideal world. All actions are up for interpretation.