Heaven

[MaddSkillz]

If God were a human being or an abstraction, you would be correct in many or most respects. But he isn't - He is the creator. He owns everything and everyone. He gives people free will to accept to reject him. So your premise and mine differ.

He even blesses people with free will he knows are completely incapable of handling it. How compassionate is that? Try handing a loaded S&W M&P to a 5 year old I'm sure people will celebrate your decision as responsible and loving. Hey, the kid has free will and that should be championed above your decision to hand it off them even though it was reckless and malevolent.

The true failure in logic here is the assumption that we're all worthy of the punishment for making the wrong choice coupled with the assumption that we were capable of making the correct choice to begin with.

Looking through the lens of current times your outrage is understandable. But some of your assertions are incorrect. The sacrifice of an animal was done quickly and cleanly. No torture in any sense. It was done to change the hearts of people - to make them understand their sins required repentance. Treatment of women - What may sound terrible from today's perspective was almost certainly a step up for women given the evil of those days. Inter generational curses - I believe this is a misinterpretation of the bible verse. I understand the verse to mean that abused children become abusive parents.

Letting everyone "do their own thing" is a flawed philosophy. Occasionally in these days some little fetid pocket of multi generational incest is uncovered and the people institutionalized for their own good. I know you approve of that sort of interference.

If you are interested I can work to uncovered some more detailed arguments about the issues you raise.

Regarding the sacrifice... It's just really odd, don't you think? Why require death at all? Don't you see how not requiring death for whatever reason is more loving than requiring it? It's barbaric. As for the treatment of women in those days... That was your god making those rules. So, you're saying he's more compassionate towards women's issues today? He no longer endorses killing non-virgins of the husbands you just killed in combat or taking the non-virgin women as your own property?

No need for you to invest time for further answers... I'm content with where I'm at and the views I've formed. Thanks though!

 

[OKCHunter]

You're outnumbered. The Hell concept has been taught for eons. Everything else you're saying is pure speculation in order for it to sound good or make sense to you. In all honesty though, faith is contingent upon an entire system of speculation as the two words are nearly interchangeable. I'm more interested in rigid precepts and rules/outcomes. But the concept of annihilation seems to be a somewhat new approach to the contradicting problem endless torture creates for an "all-loving" deity. I stumbled across that concept while researching universal salvation during the final hours of my faith.

I had not heard of the annihilation concept; I thought I had my own moment of inspiration. I'll have to research that. Jesus addressed many like you who were more interested rigid precepts and rules / outcomes. He did this through miracles to remove any doubt. I don't know you, but you seem like a decent person. I hope your mind is not completely closed. If not, you might see a miracle but you will have to be open-minded enough to recognize it.

 

[OKCHunter]

Your omnipotent god has also sat idly by and watched millions of innocent children be raped, molested, tortured and killed. Not to mention he gives them horrific birth defects, cancer and even starves them to slowly in misery.
QUOTE]

Yep. See previous post regarding the free will given to man.

 

[MaddSkillz]

I have my views and beliefs and it will never be changed based off message board fodder. Probably the same for most people on here....

However, I do find it comical that those who subscribe to the belief that man made God in an attempt to have moral governance try so hard to eradicate what they believe man put in place. If the only thing holding back someone from harming you (theft,murder,rape,etc) is an ideological belief that one day they will be judged based on their life and face the consequence of eternal damnation, why would you want to strip them of that? Its not a pure utopia like John Lennon sings about in Imagine. If man did make religion it was out of necessity because government couldn't control the people. We're not just talking Christianity here but Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Ancient Religions, etc. Aside from the extremist in every religion, there are messages of peace, love, understanding, forgiveness, and generosity. What world doesn't need that? People may reject a religion but their own morality is shaped and influenced by said religion. So though they may not believe they are governed by a religion, but their beliefs of what is right and wrong is based of the culture in which they are raised.

I don't know anyone who thinks man made god for morality. That's news to me. Religion seems to be more about money and manipulation and control.

You should look into other societies that have high percentages of non-believers. Morality doesn't seem to have nearly the connection to religion as many people think it does.

 

[Dale00]

The sacrifice of animals was a foreshadowing of Christ's sacrifice. There were non-animal offerings as well.

I sense a lot of hurt and outrage in this thread. I have to believe that root of that anger is not with God but with someone who has hurt you. Probably a nominal Christian who dishonored the name of Christ.

The answers to these pointed objections to God's goodness can be found in many places on the internet. These are frequently raised issues. But if you prefer seeing God and his followers as evil there is not much I can do to dissuade that.

 

[Blinocac200sx]

You know, for a discussion on the various views theist have on heaven, there are an awful lot of posts by non-theists. Interesting.

 

[120 Acres]

You know, for a discussion on the various views theist have on heaven, there are an awful lot of posts by non-theists. Interesting.

What is heaven? Where is it? What do we do once we get there?

I think it was a question for all and we all know how threads go off topic. I may have over stepped my bounds, but hey, dont we all?

Sorry if I offended anyone with the junk that spews from me, but the way I see the bible and most religions is black and white. You either go all the way or dont go at all. If you believe in this written word, live it. Otherwise dont cherry pick only the good parts and think that the horrific parts just dont apply.

 

[MaddSkillz]

The sacrifice of animals was a foreshadowing of Christ's sacrifice. There were non-animal offerings as well.

Still, unnecessary.

I sense a lot of hurt and outrage in this thread. I have to believe that root of that anger is not with God but with someone who has hurt you. Probably a nominal Christian who dishonored the name of Christ.

No, I've had it pretty good considering the lives others have had to deal with. Holocaust victims for example... Who inscribed, "If there is a god, he's going to have to beg for my forgiveness," on the walls in their chambers. Nothing I could endure even comes close. Yeah, sure, everyone experiences heartache, but my pursuit of truth ins't based on anger. It's based on the desire to learn... As uncomfortable as that may be at times.

The answers to these pointed objections to God's goodness can be found in many places on the internet. These are frequently raised issues. But if you prefer seeing God and his followers as evil there is not much I can do to dissuade that.

I've found the answers but to me they're not sufficient and often contradictory.

 

[MaddSkillz]

You know, for a discussion on the various views theist have on heaven, there are an awful lot of posts by non-theists. Interesting.

Religion affects us all. Not just its adherents.

 

[Blinocac200sx]

Just saying, I find it interesting.