I didn't vote in the poll; cowboydoc summarized exactly how I feel about this situation - four choices don't cover all the possible variables. I wasn't there during this specific event, and each situation will be different. I'll act accordingly, or not act and simply do what the robbers say based on what I'm seeing at the time the incident occurs. I also agree with jarhead and nofearfactor, however - I will not be herded into a bathroom, or back room, or forced to my knees and told to face away from the bad guys. Those actions all telegraph bad intent on the part of the robbers, and that (if not beforehand, depending on circumstances) is when I'll take action to defend myself and others. Assuming action is required and taken, I'm confident I'll bring to the ensuing fight several factors that the bad guys probably won't (or can't) - including the mental preparedness and willingness to shoot another human being when necessary; the equipment and training necessary to win the fight; and last, but not least and unlike my adversaries, I'll have the full force of the law on my side. Those factors alone stack the deck in my favor; not to mention the fact that the idiots such as the ones who perpetrated last Sunday's Kaffe Bona robbery most likely purchased their weapons from one of their crackhead druggie friends and have likely never fired them much less trained with them extensively. That's assuming their guns even function properly, which is also doubtful. In addition, they entered the business thinking they're badasses on the offensive with weapons drawn - once the bullets start flying at and in them, that will force them to transition to a defensive mental state. Which probably means they'll piss themselves as they're running out the door screaming like little girls.
There are a lot of variables at play. Like ripnbst noted...if you raise your arms will your CCW show? What are the odds they will find the firearm when looking for your wallet? Can they see it when you're face down on the floor? (see the security video of the robbery).
Obviously they are going to react if they see a firearm. At best they will simply take it...worst case they shoot you.
I think if you can simply be a good witness that is the best option, however if they are knocking people around, searching each person and herding them into a back room....There are so many variables no one will ever truly know unless they are in that situation.
Obviously they are going to react if they see a firearm. At best they will simply take it...worst case they shoot you.
I think if you can simply be a good witness that is the best option, however if they are knocking people around, searching each person and herding them into a back room....There are so many variables no one will ever truly know unless they are in that situation.
thats what i was thinking
I was just having this conversation with a friend of mine last week, and was going to post up this exact question. I don't know what I'd do, but if some skinny little dude starts calling me a "m'fer" or trying to pistol whip me then it definitely would have escalated. The problem is, these fools will keep going until they get caught/shot. I think you are doing the city of Tulsa a service if you can make either of these things happen.
Jonny
Jonny
Years ago I was at a meeting and we were talking about the Geronimo bank robbery where they hearded the people in the vault and shot them. (yes I am a banker)
I told the guest speaker that was at my table eating lunch that I would not be a sheep. I hope that answers the question.
I told the guest speaker that was at my table eating lunch that I would not be a sheep. I hope that answers the question.
I think I would wait till the time was right then engage, from the robbers actions they gave plenty of justification for lethal force. Hard to say without being in that situation though. I know I wouldn't sit still for pistol whipping nor will I be herded into a back room.
My answer is that I would not hesitate to defend myself if necessary, however it all depends on the myriad of tactical decisions that have to be made during the event.
The last thing I would want to do is escalate the situation uneccesarily and get someone else shot for my actions, so I would have to rely on making very good decisions about when and if and how to engage.
Be ever vigilant. Be aware of your surroundings. Be prepared at all times.
The last thing I would want to do is escalate the situation uneccesarily and get someone else shot for my actions, so I would have to rely on making very good decisions about when and if and how to engage.
Be ever vigilant. Be aware of your surroundings. Be prepared at all times.
This is why I never sit by the main entrance with my back to the door when I'm in a business or restaurant.
Yes, the poll is definitely an oversimplification of a complex scenario. If you boil it down to the basics, I'd say you get those 4 oversimplified options. More than what the poll reveals, I think this incident provides a great talking point. For some reason this event really hit home with me and I am still finding myself imagining scenarios and planning how I would react. I've always had the general plan of how I'd react, but until this I hadn't thought of all the complexities and how I'd react. So, yes, you can never say until you're there, but I think everyone would agree that now is the time to prepare mentally and strategically. CCW isn't just exercising a right, it's accepting and understanding the added responsibility.
I'm no expert on the law, but I think that in this Kaffe Bona scenario, the law would be on your side if you had to neutralize the threat regardless of whether the gun was pointed at you or another. If broad threats are made with guns drawn, I'd see a need to defend myself. Nofearfactor, I understand what you're saying about protecting yourself ultimately and retreating if possible. I agree in the sense that there is a balance between neutralizing the threat and minimizing the victims. Agreed that the last thing you want to do is start a gun battle and kill bystanders. I'd say that if the perpetrator begins firing on you or another the situation instantly changes to one where action has to be taken. Also, if you choose flight over flight, legally you cannot engage the perp to save yourself. If you can get away, deadly force isn't an option for you.
@03on22s - I'm with you on always facing the door.
There's a lot of food for thought here. I know I'll be thinking it all through for the next few weeks.
Also, two guys were arrested this morning (06/23/11) in connection to this and other robberies
http://www.krmg.com/news/news/local/two-men-arrested-kaffe-bona-robbery/nCyjT/
I'm no expert on the law, but I think that in this Kaffe Bona scenario, the law would be on your side if you had to neutralize the threat regardless of whether the gun was pointed at you or another. If broad threats are made with guns drawn, I'd see a need to defend myself. Nofearfactor, I understand what you're saying about protecting yourself ultimately and retreating if possible. I agree in the sense that there is a balance between neutralizing the threat and minimizing the victims. Agreed that the last thing you want to do is start a gun battle and kill bystanders. I'd say that if the perpetrator begins firing on you or another the situation instantly changes to one where action has to be taken. Also, if you choose flight over flight, legally you cannot engage the perp to save yourself. If you can get away, deadly force isn't an option for you.
@03on22s - I'm with you on always facing the door.
There's a lot of food for thought here. I know I'll be thinking it all through for the next few weeks.
Also, two guys were arrested this morning (06/23/11) in connection to this and other robberies
http://www.krmg.com/news/news/local/two-men-arrested-kaffe-bona-robbery/nCyjT/
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