obama. executive order. minimum wage.

[Mike_60]

...Wages always go up, cost of goods and services always goes up....

That isn't actually true. As a percentage of income over time prices have almost always gone down, in some cases dramatically.

 

[SlugSlinger]

And, per the SS administration, averages wages fell in 2009, the first time since 1951 when the stats began.

 

[Lurker66]

Our workers are the most productive in the world but that has much to do with greater levels of automation and mechanization to reduce the need for expensive, tedious labor. For a company to survive in the US, they must find a way to mitigate their labor costs to be competitive with cheap foreign labor. Our businesses have to produce more goods with less labor. This requires more skilled workers to operate and service complex machinery. One by product of this need for more skilled workers is much higher wages than minimum wage. These labor rates are determined by the free market much more than any increase in minimum wage.

You speak as if we have 30% unemployment while we really only have less than 10%. And if you will notice by a lack of CS in many establishments, there is likely more than 10% of people not worth minimum wage. It seems to me like you wish to recapture the glory days post WWII when we had a vibrant and expansive manufacturing industry. Times have very much shifted to a service based economy as we out source much of the tedious, low profit manufacturing to areas of the world that have cheap labor. Much like how the US was post WWII.

The days of using vast amounts of labor to produce goods in the country are over. Anything produced now has to be far more efficient than ever before. Personally, I can only refer to farming. Currently less than 2% of this country produces food for this country. Yet we produce far more volume than ever before despite the fact that 18% of the workforce in 1940 were in agriculture. We are at 60 year lows for the number of head of cattle yet have the highest levels of beef production ever. This is possible because advances in mechanization, different techniques, and innovative chemistry. Labor is in short supply already, especially in the agriculture sector.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that our labor costs are currently the highest in the world and by continuing to raise those costs even more will not do the minimum wage worker any favors. Businesses will adapt to higher costs by innovating new machinery to permanently eliminate jobs to remain competitive. Just a few days ago there was a link posted here on OSA about a burger making machine. This will be the legacy of continuing minimum wage hikes. Yes, businesses will pay what they must and go on but they will also look for any way to reduce the impact of higher labor costs in the future.

I agree with much of what your wrote. I agree so much that it would be easy to flip my opinion and argue that we SHOULDNT have a minimum wage. That we should encourage bussinesses to move overseas. We should encourage every business owner to find a way to cut costs. Start with labor cost, deregulate, roll back laws. Make it easy for businesses to sell their goods and services. But we've done that. Thats our history. Look at the demographic at who buys and consumes. Look at the trend. The small American businessman is going extinct. Same thing happened to farmers. Why??? Because thats the nature of the Leviathan.

As much as id like to to roll back the clock, that aint gonna happen. Thats not real. Neither is returning to an agricultural economy. What is real is wages. We have to pay something for labor. That something is minimum. Its a step above free labor. You know it and I know it.

Now we must debate how much minimum should we mandate. We must set a minimum dollar amount.

 

[Lurker66]

Good point. You might also add financially stable.

Because if your financially stable, your opinion matters? Whereas if your flippin burgers or slinging mops you probably dont know much about makin money or how the economy runs or works?

Yep im on a fixed income. Im very stable financially.

 

[Lurker66]

That isn't actually true. As a percentage of income over time prices have almost always gone down, in some cases dramatically.

Looky looky. Ah nevermind. Id have to teach a class.

 

[SlugSlinger]

Because if your financially stable, your opinion matters?


Whereas if your flippin burgers or slinging mops you probably dont know much about makin money or how the economy runs or works?

It does when you're debating economics and finances. If you can't handle your own finances, you shouldn't be telling others how to manage theirs.

And I never said anything about your last sentence, that's all you.

 

[Mike_60]

Looky looky. Ah nevermind. Id have to teach a class.

It would be an awfully short class with a SA attitude like that. What I said is true. Take a look at that thing you're typing on it's a perfect example because the cost has dramatically dropped over the last couple of decades. The first computers I bought I had to take out a load to pay for, but now, it's priced like any other small appliance. That holds true also through most all other areas of goods and services. BUT...I do understand your problem if you're living on a fixed, or near to fixed, income because the economy doesn't work well for folks in that situation. Most pensions/annuities don't keep up with inflation and the recipients tend to lose purchasing power as time goes by.

 

[Lurker66]

What's frustrating about debating you is you consider your opinion as fact and the facts that are presented to you as opinion.

This is a forum, we're discussing minimum wage. Fact. There is a minimum. Fact. The minimum is a dollar amount. Fact. Minimum dollar amounts must be paid for labor. Fact. Labor is work. Fact. work is done by workers who by law must be paid a minimum.

You consider this my opinion? You question my credibilty to have an opinion? Another post you suggest one ought to be financially stable in order to have an opinion. Cmon man. Tell me, you dont think im credible. Tell me I dont know how to make money and retire at age 38....then go to college and get degrees just because.

The guy you bought economic book from...is he retired?

 

[Lurker66]

It would be an awfully short class with a SA attitude like that. What I said is true. Take a look at that thing you're typing on it's a perfect example because the cost has dramatically dropped over the last couple of decades. The first computers I bought I had to take out a load to pay for, but now, it's priced like any other small appliance. That holds true also through most all other areas of goods and services. BUT...I do understand your problem if you're living on a fixed, or near to fixed, income because the economy doesn't work well for folks in that situation. Most pensions/annuities don't keep up with inflation and the recipients tend to lose purchasing power as time goes by.

Mike, I appologize for the SA attitude. Main reason for my attitude today is that im typeing on a Samsung Note II not a pc or laptop. I paid $400 for this phone. Its the most ive ever paid for a phone...my first was an old bag phone for $200ish.....anyway I get your point. I hope you get the irony.

Oh I have no problem on my fixed income.

 

[Mike_60]

Mike, I appologize for the SA attitude.....

Apology accepted, and please accept an apology from me, if I offended in anything I said because it wasn't meant to offend.