Open Carry!

[SMS]

Have you read any of the stories on here where someone was in the process of being accosted by multiple people or even one person who seemed out of control, but when they put their hand on their pistol, or in one case pulled it out and laid it up on their steering wheel, the offending parties suddenly had somewhere else to be?

Yes, I've read them. IMHO, the presentation of a firearm constitutes a threat of deadly force and in nearly every single one of those "stories", there were other actions that could be taken without the story-teller injecting deadly force.

We've had a lot of discussions on this subject though...I'm not going to revist them all. There are two camps...one that believes a gun should be holstered and/or concealed until it needs to be drawn AND fired. And those who think it is ok to use it as a charm to ward off or 'diffuse' a situation.

I know which camp I'm in.

This is my point. I would rather show my hand and clear up the situation before it turns into a bigger problem involving a body bag. That's me, my opinion. You guys who say this is wrong, are trying to bait the BG up to the point you get your kill??

In some of other discussions many of us are of the opinion that if you have time to "show your hand" then you have time to do something else. It's not about baiting the "BG" and getting a kill, it's about using your head, avoiding the situation and doing something else without YOU being the one who is injecting deadly force. Sorry you don't get that. Showing a gun to punks in a walmart parking lot or to a guy with a can of mace is closer to baiting than the many other options one has in those scenarios.

 

[indi]

IMO retention devices are a bad idea, but if you want one then knock yourself out. I will NEVER wear a holster that in any way impedes drawing my G21 (there are times when I can't wear a holster, so I carry a fast-draw fanny pack). I got my CCL because some punk stuck his 9mm in my face because I wouldn't let him beat up his girlfriend. If I'd had my gun split seconds would have counted and I wouldn't want to be fussing with a thumb-break or some other retention device. When you're in a fight, fine motor skills go out the window. Even highly trained LEO's miss more often than they hit when in a gunfight. In a SD situation I don't want a distraction.

Handgun training of any sort is a great idea - requiring it crosses the line. If a person can't figure out from the SDA training that they need to hang onto their gun, forcing them to take another class isn't going to help.

There's going to be a rash of people who OC because it's cool, but the fad will pass and then it'll be back to business as usual for those of us who carry for SD. For me, I don't like wearing a jacket or sport coat all the time or worrying about the barrel of the G21 showing beneath the edge of my jacket. After Nov 1, I can take my coat off when I get in the car and don't have to put it on before I get out. Being able to take off my jacket at the restaurant will be great.

IDK if you're calling the right to OC stupid or the act of carrying OC stupid, but either way I think you're mistaken, and are working yourself up over something that will turn out to be a non-event to law-abiding citizens. On the other hand, criminals will be concerned because removing the concealed requirement will encourage more people to carry, rasing the risk level of engaging in criminal activity. What's wrong with that?

+1, i own two galco iwb holsters that have a thumb snap on them, i thought they were the way to go, but after practicing dry firing i realized how bad of an idea the thumb snap really was, im sure after practice you can get quick with it. I practice dry fire alot, and i could never really get a good clean draw with the thumb snap on. Now i carry in a galco kingtuc (its similar to the croosbreed supertuck) which i think is the best thing since sliced bread. It retains the firearm good enough that it wont fall out, and to draw all you have to do is pull on the firearm. I feel it shaves enough time that it could save my life, if ever in the situation that i needed to draw my firearm. Another plus is that i can easily reholster my firearm, with out removing the holster from my belt which was a real pain when practicing.

 

[av8r115]

Have you read any of the stories on here where someone was in the process of being accosted by multiple people or even one person who seemed out of control, but when they put their hand on their pistol, or in one case pulled it out and laid it up on their steering wheel, the offending parties suddenly had somewhere else to be?

I know it's not something to be used in an offensively threatening or intimidating manner, but there are times when you cannot de-escalate the situation any other way, yet simply letting them know you have the means to defend yourself is highly effective in calming or ending the situation at hand.

As for me, if it comes down to that, depending on the situation, I would much rather have the opportunity to let them know I have the means and ability and intent to protect myself and both of us walk away at the end of the encounter, than for me to wait another few seconds until I have absolutely no choice but to kill someone to resolve it.

That's just my opinion... as I said, I know it is not to be use OFFENSIVELY in such a situation, but simply showing (or suggesting) that you have a weapon to de-escalate a situation is not always a bad thing. This is a far cry from using a weapon simply as a talisman when you have no intention or capability of carrying out the threat it suggests, which is a far more dangerous game.

In principle, I agree. What I'm trying to say is that someone should not have the mindset that the threat will go away just because the BG knows you have a gun. It very well might, but don't ASSUME that just because he knows you have a gun he'll go away. Your attitude towards the BG, eye contact, etc all go a long way towards letting the BG know that you are prepared to defend yourself. I think "imminent threat" encompasses the whole encounter and you should escalate as appropriate to defend yourself. Maybe all you have to do is reach for your gun for the BG to split. But again, I think a person should not reach for their gun unless they are fully prepared to pull the trigger.

 

[Radiator girl]

Yes, I've read them. IMHO, the presentation of a firearm constitutes a threat of deadly force and in nearly every single one of those "stories", there were other actions that could be taken without the story-teller injecting deadly force.

We've had a lot of discussions on this subject though...I'm not going to revist them all. There are two camps...one that believes a gun should be holstered and/or concealed until it needs to be drawn AND fired. And those who think it is ok to use it as a charm to ward off or 'diffuse' a situation.

I know which camp I'm in.

In some of other discussions many of us are of the opinion that if you have time to "show your hand" then you have time to do something else. It's not about baiting the "BG" and getting a kill, it's about using your head, avoiding the situation and doing something else without YOU being the one who is injecting deadly force. Sorry you don't get that. Showing a gun to punks in a walmart parking lot or to a guy with a can of mace is closer to baiting than the many other options one has in those scenarios.

It's fantastic you know it all and how every scenario will play out and how we all need to handle the situation the way YOU see fit. Thank you for your wisdom on how the universe works and the way it should be handled. Opinions are like A holes, everybody has one.

This is piston, forgot I was in the wife's phone

 

[cowmugger]

Has anyone used a whistle to dissolve/de-escalate a situation, before going to lethal force? Doug Ritter says we should be carrying a whistle. Disturbing the peace might be better charge to talk to the DA about than brandishing, discharging a firearm in the city limits, or justifiable homicide/SD. If you are alone....you may also introduce the thought of running. "Chicken" with no legal fees probably better position than scraping together 50 thousand dollars.

Check out this article in Dillon's magazine, "The Blue Press", "Don't Shoot, RUN!" by Duane Thomas, page 60 of the April edition online.

http://www.horsepropertyguide.com/flipbooks/dillon/apr2012/object_files/main.swf

I think it is in a different printed copy that came in the mail, maybe Jan or Feb.

 

[twoguns?]

And what exactly do you base that on? Please share with us your history in the profession of arms.

As said before..I believe in Constitutional carry.
To add This or That ..ad nausium...might be giving up the "Idea " of that right.
I believe Most responsible CWL holders will have some type of retention..(If they decide to open carry).
I have some training in gun retention, but to make it mandatory..or law .I think is over stepping Their authority.
Or ,if you dont want to open carry (I probably wont) then dont...but dont argue against the rights of those that want to.

 

[Jefpainthorse]

Open carry is stupid IMHO. Not requiring some type of retention holster and weapon retention training is irresponsible.

Under the current law... a SDA candidate only has to pass a minimal written test... fire 50 rounds at targets so close I could read the Printers trademark at the edge of the paper.

As long as you don't shoot the guy next to you, the instructor or yourself you pass. Even if the guy next to you gets 53 shots in his target.

Retention holsters and retention training? Good idea. We have a bunch of good places in Oklahoma that will teach the retention stuff. Holsters? They have been selling thumb-breaks along with friction screws every day for years. What were you concealing your gun in before Nov 1 2012?

Training? How many of your SDA buddies train? Every been to Gunsite, TDSA, USSA or one of several other good training places to learn how to run that gun on the street? Maybe shoot IDPA to keep those skills rust free?

Open carry was the only option in a few states over the years... before CCW laws started to change. It can be done safely and if your smart- you wont loose any "tactical" edge or become the default "first guy shot" if you encounter a bad situation.

I wore my IWB with a shirt tucked in (that's open carry) for a long time. Dark guns, discrete holsters, dressing like a benign non- attention drawing person go a long way in OC.

Simple retention things you should have been doing all along.

Adopt an interview posture... weak side blades slightly ... with the holster "behind" the contact has a further reach to grab the gun.
Try to stand with gun facing walls, counters, the inside of resturant booths, etc.
Learn to "elbow check " the gun...

Aware CC carriers use these methods all the time... they work in OC too.

The guy who wears the biggest gun, the most red neck outfits and the baddest a$$ed holster usually get the most negative attention...

 

[okiebryan]

Pulling back a jacket to expose a properly holstered firearm after November 1st will be nothing more than switching from concealed carry to open carry. If open carry then diffuses the situation, then an attack was deterred. I'd think that brandishing would require one to remove the gun from its holster and held in in the hand.

 

[piston10]

Pulling back a jacket to expose a properly holstered firearm after November 1st will be nothing more than switching from concealed carry to open carry. If open carry then diffuses the situation, then an attack was deterred. I'd think that brandishing would require one to remove the gun from its holster and held in in the hand.

^^this

 

[okiebryan]

And what exactly do you base that on? Please share with us your history in the profession of arms.

You first. Go ahead, we'll wait. After all, your assertion was far more ridiculous than was his.