Question for you 3 gunners

[Curly]

I would submit that if you have the highest score on competition day, then get killed by a mugger because you flub your draw from your actual CCW holster, you have just lost the game.

To me, the "game" is working toward perfecting the art of self-defense. The score you get matters not one whit, EXCEPT for the very important matter of comparing it against your old scores, and working to improve as against yourself.

YMM (and does) V.



Sorry, not true at all... the skill set of rapidly shooting accurately under pressure can and does have a lot more carryover to a self-defense situation than the analogy you describe. True that they're not one and the same - but the skill set is MUCH more useful than for a drag racer on city streets - and I'll bet you that move drag racers can in fact drive very well on neighborhood streets.

I have shot these matches for a long time and have never had one of the targets draw on me or shoot at me,there fore I am a firm believer that until you are faced with this situation you really don't know what your reaction will be CCW or not That is why I tend to avoid places where this might happen,although I do carry,I hope I never have to use it!!!!I use BLADETECH's also

 

[mike_pinto]

Amen curly. That's why I hang around skinheaded, long bearded, tattoo'd dudes!

 

[mike_pinto]

You know, I have been thinking about this thread and this is the source of confusion and recent negative activity on this forum. There is a difference between competition and defense. I have done both, probly more on the defense side then 90% of the tactical guys on here. Those that know me know my background, although I keep it rather quiet on here. I have fired shots in anger and have been shot at, and competition has nothing to do with that. The good dr made a point about training like you fight, but we are not training for anything but 3-gun competition. If we could get folks to understand that, there would be a lot less banning and bentering here. I promise you that competition shooters as a whole will win a fight because we have practice ethics with firearms. If we want to be better at ipsc, we practice. But don't let that fool you. I practice with my carry rig and I bet most of my compadres do as well.

I have been an operator. I am a competitor. The two are exclusive, but try to take my stuff in a dark alley. Don't assume for a minute that the tactical crowd out here are the only ones that can clear a building an engage multiple targets. I would take Kelly Raglin and Jay Mackey to any engagement and feel safe. I would say Lance, but he is already a cop. They are competition shooters, but like I said, we shoot little targets at 50 compared to getting gun powder at contact.

Say what you will about competitive shooters not being tactical, but I wouldn't bet that they can't draw out of an IWB faster then you.

Tad, come on out and see what it is all about. I invite all of you to come out to okcgc next Sunday and see what it is all about.

M

 

[Mitch H.]

You know, I have been thinking about this thread and this is the source of confusion and recent negative activity on this forum. There is a difference between competition and defense. I have done both, probly more on the defense side then 90% of the tactical guys on here. Those that know me know my background, although I keep it rather quiet on here. I have fired shots in anger and have been shot at, and competition has nothing to do with that. The good dr made a point about training like you fight, but we are not training for anything but 3-gun competition. If we could get folks to understand that, there would be a lot less banning and bentering here. I promise you that competition shooters as a whole will win a fight because we have practice ethics with firearms. If we want to be better at ipsc, we practice. But don't let that fool you. I practice with my carry rig and I bet most of my compadres do as well.

I have been an operator. I am a competitor. The two are exclusive, but try to take my stuff in a dark alley. Don't assume for a minute that the tactical crowd out here are the only ones that can clear a building an engage multiple targets. I would take Kelly Raglin and Jay Mackey to any engagement and feel safe. I would say Lance, but he is already a cop. They are competition shooters, but like I said, we shoot little targets at 50 compared to getting gun powder at contact.

Say what you will about competitive shooters not being tactical, but I wouldn't bet that they can't draw out of an IWB faster then you.

Tad, come on out and see what it is all about. I invite all of you to come out to okcgc next Sunday and see what it is all about.

M

Very well stated Mike! I will leave it at that for a variety of reasons.

 

[stewball]

I guess my point was, as Mr. Pinto pointed out, there are all types of competition and tactical situations. I, like Curly, have never been in a life threating situation and most likely, if I was able to survive it, I would have to invest in a clean pair of underpants.

I for one, am participating in these events to have FUN. I would say that we all learn much about our weapons and most likely improve our skills in the process. Although I will never be able to beat any of those youngsters, I look forward to giving it as much hell as my old bones will take.

Many thanks to all the fine gentlemen and ladies who make all this FUN posslible.

 

[Slammer]

You know, I have been thinking about this thread and this is the source of confusion and recent negative activity on this forum. There is a difference between competition and defense. I have done both, probly more on the defense side then 90% of the tactical guys on here. Those that know me know my background, although I keep it rather quiet on here. I have fired shots in anger and have been shot at, and competition has nothing to do with that. The good dr made a point about training like you fight, but we are not training for anything but 3-gun competition. If we could get folks to understand that, there would be a lot less banning and bentering here. I promise you that competition shooters as a whole will win a fight because we have practice ethics with firearms. If we want to be better at ipsc, we practice. But don't let that fool you. I practice with my carry rig and I bet most of my compadres do as well.

I have been an operator. I am a competitor. The two are exclusive, but try to take my stuff in a dark alley. Don't assume for a minute that the tactical crowd out here are the only ones that can clear a building an engage multiple targets. I would take Kelly Raglin and Jay Mackey to any engagement and feel safe. I would say Lance, but he is already a cop. They are competition shooters, but like I said, we shoot little targets at 50 compared to getting gun powder at contact.

Say what you will about competitive shooters not being tactical, but I wouldn't bet that they can't draw out of an IWB faster then you.

Tad, come on out and see what it is all about. I invite all of you to come out to okcgc next Sunday and see what it is all about.

M

+1

That's what I meant to say.

 

[Michael Brown]

You know, I have been thinking about this thread and this is the source of confusion and recent negative activity on this forum. There is a difference between competition and defense. I have done both, probly more on the defense side then 90% of the tactical guys on here. Those that know me know my background, although I keep it rather quiet on here. I have fired shots in anger and have been shot at, and competition has nothing to do with that. The good dr made a point about training like you fight, but we are not training for anything but 3-gun competition. If we could get folks to understand that, there would be a lot less banning and bentering here. I promise you that competition shooters as a whole will win a fight because we have practice ethics with firearms. If we want to be better at ipsc, we practice. But don't let that fool you. I practice with my carry rig and I bet most of my compadres do as well.

I have been an operator. I am a competitor. The two are exclusive, but try to take my stuff in a dark alley. Don't assume for a minute that the tactical crowd out here are the only ones that can clear a building an engage multiple targets. I would take Kelly Raglin and Jay Mackey to any engagement and feel safe. I would say Lance, but he is already a cop. They are competition shooters, but like I said, we shoot little targets at 50 compared to getting gun powder at contact.

Say what you will about competitive shooters not being tactical, but I wouldn't bet that they can't draw out of an IWB faster then you.

Tad, come on out and see what it is all about. I invite all of you to come out to okcgc next Sunday and see what it is all about.

M

If this is the source of confusion, it is one-sided since this comment is obviously intended for me. There is no confusion on my part regarding the benefit of competition to what I do.

Mike, if you'll ask Kelly Raglin, Jay Mackey, or Lance they will all tell you that I was an avid competitor for years. They'll probably tell you I did alright as well.

As far as clearing buildings goes, if you have experience doing so then you are probably waaaay better than me as it's not a strength of mine because it's not a frequently used skill.

But the examples you list do indicate the mindset that many have about what personal protection is all about. It's not about clearing buildings unless you are LE or Military, although understanding angles is a critical skill.

Personal protection is largely about decision making supported by physical alternatives.

When it comes to engaging targets, shooting back or not, at 7 or more yards then being an IPSC or IDPA Master class shooter is about the most useful physical skill you can have. I know it saved me.

However in terms of criminal assault, 5 yards is the next time zone. In IPSC or IDPA, it's close range.

Regarding banning and bickering, one person's behavior was the cause of that, not any confusion about training methods.

All that said, I'd much prefer to leave this topic to 3-Gun, but since a large paragraph was written to get my attention or point out my alleged misunderstandings, I felt it appropriate to comment.

Michael Brown

 

[mike_pinto]

Removed

If this is the source of confusion, it is one-sided since this comment is obviously intended for me. There is no confusion on my part regarding the benefit of competition to what I do.

Mike, if you'll ask Kelly Raglin, Jay Mackey, or Lance they will all tell you that I was an avid competitor for years. They'll probably tell you I did alright as well.

As far as clearing buildings goes, if you have experience doing so then you are probably waaaay better than me as it's not a strength of mine because it's not a frequently used skill.

But the examples you list do indicate the mindset that many have about what personal protection is all about. It's not about clearing buildings unless you are LE or Military, although understanding angles is a critical skill.

Personal protection is largely about decision making supported by physical alternatives.

When it comes to engaging targets, shooting back or not, at 7 or more yards then being an IPSC or IDPA Master class shooter is about the most useful physical skill you can have. I know it saved me.

However in terms of criminal assault, 5 yards is the next time zone. In IPSC or IDPA, it's close range.

Regarding banning and bickering, one person's behavior was the cause of that, not any confusion about training methods.

All that said, I'd much prefer to leave this topic to 3-Gun, but since a large paragraph was written to get my attention or point out my alleged misunderstandings, I felt it appropriate to comment.

Michael Brown

 

[Slammer]

If this is the source of confusion, it is one-sided since this comment is obviously intended for me. There is no confusion on my part regarding the benefit of competition to what I do.

Mike, if you'll ask Kelly Raglin, Jay Mackey, or Lance they will all tell you that I was an avid competitor for years. They'll probably tell you I did alright as well.

As far as clearing buildings goes, if you have experience doing so then you are probably waaaay better than me as it's not a strength of mine because it's not a frequently used skill.

But the examples you list do indicate the mindset that many have about what personal protection is all about. It's not about clearing buildings unless you are LE or Military, although understanding angles is a critical skill.

Personal protection is largely about decision making supported by physical alternatives.

When it comes to engaging targets, shooting back or not, at 7 or more yards then being an IPSC or IDPA Master class shooter is about the most useful physical skill you can have. I know it saved me.

However in terms of criminal assault, 5 yards is the next time zone. In IPSC or IDPA, it's close range.

Regarding banning and bickering, one person's behavior was the cause of that, not any confusion about training methods.

All that said, I'd much prefer to leave this topic to 3-Gun, but since a large paragraph was written to get my attention or point out my alleged misunderstandings, I felt it appropriate to comment.

Michael Brown

... and what kind of holster do you use for that?

 

[Maj. John Andre]

Well I don't know abouot holsters, but competition has driven "tactical gear" now for quite some time. A good example is red dot sights. Pistol shooters started using them around 1982 and then some started putting them on competition rifles, now the military is using them. Big mag wells were mentioned...Delta had a buy of 900 STI Edge pistols, complete with big mag wells. It isn't uncomon to see an Ops-inc Muzzle brake on a MK-12 rifle as they are standard issue. Free float hand guards were straight out of the competition field. I saw a picture of a Marine in Iraq with a Benelli M-4 and he had on an arm band shell holder....straight from the competition world. J.P. rifles makes some of the finest competition AR-15s on the market, and Las Cruces New Meico P.D. has them as patrol rifles. Well you get the idea, and although competition shooting will teach bad habits that will get you killed in the real world it does fill a small nitch to develope gear.