Warrantless search - Rogers County

[Glocktogo]

It's A balmy 70 degrees in Cabo!
Somewhere in between soaking up rays and frolicking in the surf I'll get caught up on my messages.

Nah. Probably I won't!

And no, it is not correct to say that flying is a privilege, and it is not correct to say therefore you do not have the right to be secure. That is the nature of rights. They attach to the person irrespective of what he happens to be doing at the time. It is the province of just governments to protect (not to confer or to limit) such rights.

(Seems to me I read that somewhere! It's right on the tip of my tongue . . .)

Sweet! Still doesn't invalidate the fact that you have a right to submit to an administrative search in exchange for access to a federally protected area. If you want a state or local equivalent, do you feel you have a right to enter a prison or jail without being searched?

Also, flying isn't a privilege, but it's not an exclusive or enumerated right either. You can get on any commercial or charter aircraft under 12,500 pounds you want without a federally required search. If it's a Part 91 aircraft, it can be a 747 (should you have the means). But you do not have a right to enter a federally protected area without being subject to search. Think of it as a NOTAM. Do you have a right to ignore NOTAMS and fly into whatever airspace you want? National Defense Airspace? Area 51? Presidential Airspace?

No, you don't. Your "right" to fly is finite. It has restrictions. You are still free to go wherever you want without being searched (or intercepted) EXCEPT federally protected areas. No one is ever going to force you to enter those zones against your will and search you, unless you're sentenced to federal prison.

What part of this don't you understand?

 

[Glocktogo]

I'm not justifying the actions of the officers in either incident. But, you're moving the goalposts here. This is how you initially started this:



Both of these incidents are far more complicated than simple, passive resisting. Both involve men who were armed or reported to be armed. Shaver was drunk and stupid and reached for his waist and, like it or not, the officer was acquitted. I would've handled that call differently but I wasn't there. The other guy, also reportedly armed, who had a history of violence, also should've complied rather than ducking back towards the house.

The simple fact of the matter is, when the police are there due to your bad behavior, it's probably not a good idea to resist or fail to comply when they're yelling at you and pointing guns at you. Even if you think you're right and they're wrong. You'll have your chance to air your side of the story and your grievances at a later time.

Maybe you should watch some of the thousands of videos of "average" people shooting cops without provocation...or ambushing them. None of these things occur in a vacuum.



You should pay more attention to what people say because I've already given insight into why I'm no longer a cop in one of my earlier posts in this thread. I'm not gonna justify bad behavior by cops. But I'll not rationalize it for anyone else, either. And I still maintain you can't possibly justify what you said in your first post that I quoted above. I'll concede it may happen or, at a minimum, cops sometimes unjustly shoot people. But to say the average cop will shoot you for refusing a search of your car or even non-violent resisting is ridiculous and can't be defended. It just can't. Do the math on how many people resist the average cop in this country on a given day...gotta be in the hundreds, if not thousands. Some resist with real violence. The number of shootings by police every day would be in the hundreds, or even thousands. It just doesn't happen.

Just one caveat. The Daniel Shaver case is a singularly egregious injustice. The cops in that hallway played a game of Simon Says "You're Dead!" and got away with it Scot Free. They were utterly incompetent and overtly aggressive. They are exactly why the public mistrusts law enforcement. Shaver was absolutely 100% trying to passively COMPLY and he was murdered for his troubles.

There isn't one single redeeming fact in favor of those particular officers, including the initial report. So instead of saying "I would've handled that call differently but I wasn't there.", just admit the truth. They were bad at their job and they killed a man unjustly. Anything less is just prevarication.

 

[OK Corgi Rancher]

I disagree. If the officers had been called to a noise complaint or some other minor issue I doubt the response would've been the same as answering the call of man with a gun pointing it at people. I'm not justifying their actions. Then again, I don't have to because they were acquitted. But I'm not gonna make excuses for Shaver's piss poor behavior before the contact, either. Like I said...these things don't happen in a vacuum.

Shaver shouldn't have died that night. But it's still my opinion that he put himself into that situation thru poor behavior and decision making.

And mistrust is a two-way street. There are lots of valid reasons, especially today, for officers not to trust the public, or politicians, or bureaucrats or administrators...

 

[Glocktogo]

I disagree. If the officers had been called to a noise complaint or some other minor issue I doubt the response would've been the same as answering the call of man with a gun pointing it at people. I'm not justifying their actions. Then again, I don't have to because they were acquitted. But I'm not gonna make excuses for Shaver's piss poor behavior before the contact, either. Like I said...these things don't happen in a vacuum.

Shaver shouldn't have died that night. But it's still my opinion that he put himself into that situation thru poor behavior and decision making.

And mistrust is a two-way street. There are lots of valid reasons, especially today, for officers not to trust the public, or politicians, or bureaucrats or administrators...

And that opinion further widens the chasm. Wouldn't you rather be part of the solution than the problem?

 

[TwoNumbThumbs]

And that opinion further widens the chasm. Wouldn't you rather be part of the solution than the problem?

You’re right, but I’ve found current and former LEO to be particularly obstinate on this point. TBL and all that.

 

[Roadking Larry]

I disagree. If the officers had been called to a noise complaint or some other minor issue I doubt the response would've been the same as answering the call of man with a gun pointing it at people. I'm not justifying their actions. Then again, I don't have to because they were acquitted. But I'm not gonna make excuses for Shaver's piss poor behavior before the contact, either. Like I said...these things don't happen in a vacuum.

Shaver shouldn't have died that night. But it's still my opinion that he put himself into that situation thru poor behavior and decision making.

And mistrust is a two-way street. There are lots of valid reasons, especially today, for officers not to trust the public, or politicians, or bureaucrats or administrators...

And then we get to the age old question. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
You're right trust, mistrust and respect are two way streets. Cops tell us they are always on the edge because they never know if their next citizen contact might be a bad guy out to get them. Well, guess what us lowly peons can be on edge because our next cop contact my be a jack booted thug out to get us.

 

[TwoNumbThumbs]

And then we get to the age old question. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
You're right trust, mistrust and respect are two way streets. Cops tell us they are always on the edge because they never know if their next citizen contact might be a bad guy out to get them. Well, guess what us lowly peons can be on edge because our next cop contact my be a jack booted thug out to get us.

And if they’re out to get us, what recourse do we have? Especially if our identity isn’t “sexy” enough for politicians and the media to organize nation-wide riots on our behalf. We’re just SOL.

 

[El Pablo]

So, to sum it up, regardless of career choice, some people suck, some people don’t, some are in between. A lot of members here do not understand constitutional law, at all, or natural rights, or case law, or…

 

[OK Corgi Rancher]

And that opinion further widens the chasm. Wouldn't you rather be part of the solution than the problem?

Honestly? I just want to be left alone. I haven't worn a badge since 2003...so basically 20 years. During that time I've had one real contact with law enforcement and that was for speeding. Surprisingly enough, the officer didn't shoot me, violate my rights or do anything to make me feel threatened or afraid. He was nice enough and professional and I was polite and respectful to him. I paid my ticket because I did exactly what he said I did.

I don't do stupid s**t that puts me at risk of law enforcement contacts. I don't hang out with stupid people that might attract law enforcement attention. And I don't go to stupid places that attract a lot of law enforcement attention. These are just some rules I live by.

I don't have much sympathy for people who create their own problems thru bad judgment, bad behavior, etc... I have even less sympathy for people who blame the cops (or anyone else for that matter) for their own stupid behavior and bad decisions.

So I don't really see how I can be part of the solution. Nifty little platitude, but I don't really know what being part of the solution would look like...mostly because I'm not even sure we agree on what the problem is. And I sure as hell don't see how I'm part of the problem. I take care of my family and my personal business. I'm not responsible for what others do, regardless of which side of the law they're on.

 

[Glocktogo]

Honestly? I just want to be left alone. I haven't worn a badge since 2003...so basically 20 years. During that time I've had one real contact with law enforcement and that was for speeding. Surprisingly enough, the officer didn't shoot me, violate my rights or do anything to make me feel threatened or afraid. He was nice enough and professional and I was polite and respectful to him. I paid my ticket because I did exactly what he said I did.

I don't do stupid s**t that puts me at risk of law enforcement contacts. I don't hang out with stupid people that might attract law enforcement attention. And I don't go to stupid places that attract a lot of law enforcement attention. These are just some rules I live by.

I don't have much sympathy for people who create their own problems thru bad judgment, bad behavior, etc... I have even less sympathy for people who blame the cops (or anyone else for that matter) for their own stupid behavior and bad decisions.

So I don't really see how I can be part of the solution. Nifty little platitude, but I don't really know what being part of the solution would look like...mostly because I'm not even sure we agree on what the problem is. And I sure as hell don't see how I'm part of the problem. I take care of my family and my personal business. I'm not responsible for what others do, regardless of which side of the law they're on.

You might not see it, but many on here do. I'm not saying you have to be on one side or the other, but without choosing sides, you've managed to firmly place yourself on a side. That's on you.

Edit: But for the glimmer in your daddy's eye, you wouldn't be here. That doesn't absolve you of any wrongs you may have ever committed. It's not a platitude to simply say the LEO's who murdered Daniel Shaver were bad cops. It's not a platitude to say you blame bad faith acts by LEO's on the people they encounter. You do that because you "don't have much sympathy". That says more about you than them.

If you haven't noticed, I've been very even handed in this thread. I'm former LE too, but first and foremost I am and always will be a US citizen. I understand that even good people make mistakes that cause them to come into contact with LE. But then again, I'm not so jaded and callous as to not care. You do you I guess.