Westley Richards hammer fired 16ga SxS

[AER244]

Do any of you all know anything about old Westley Richards shotguns? I just stumbled across this one and am considering buying it. The barrel looks to be heavily patinated Damascus? The gentleman selling it said he thought it was modern ammo safe, but I have my doubts. Any information is appreciated.

 

[WoodsCraft]

Its generally not considered safe to use smokeless loads , before I shot the old gun even with black powder I would take it to a knowledgeable smith who can inspect the bores for pitting and make sure there is no kind of delaminations .

 

[mtngunr]

Ditto on looking for fissures in bore, but WR used no second rate Belgian damascus and knew what they were about. Folk in the UK continue to successfully submit quality damascus for proof testing, and if mirror bores and chambers I'd shoot it without hesitation. Be aware it was chambered for brass and paper shells using a brass crimp or paper roll crimp, and likely not room for modern plastic stab crimp to unfurl without intruding into throat, partially blocking and raising pressures, and so chamber would likely (if not done already) need lengthening for plastic shells, and shoot loads truly equiv to BP pressure...and, of course, ZERO steel.
Be sure to tap upper/lower ribs listening for dead/loose spots.
Nice old guns can also be a money sucking black hole if stock head oil soaked and crumbling under locks and around tang out of sight. If you don't know what your are doing, best to pass. You might check for smokeless proof marks if considering modern shells.

 

[dennishoddy]

European 16 ga shells are 2 1/2” long so if one could find those, the chamber length may not be an issue if it is indeed safe to use modern ammunition.

 

[mtngunr]

European 16 ga shells are 2 1/2” long so if one could find those, the chamber length may not be an issue if it is indeed safe to use modern ammunition.

Yes, 12ga and 16ga, 2.5", but still would likely need roll crimped unless chamber lengthened. It likely late 1800s gun, designed around shells and loads of that time, and not today's, especially US loads of ever heavier shot loads to make up for poor shooting and poorly patterning guns. Choke didn't hold up forever in damascus, either.

 

[mtngunr]

I took the OP at his word that it was a Westley Richards, but struggling to view larger photos on phone where images zoom around on attachments, I suspect that a common knock-off, as WR started in Birmingham then opened a Bond Street office in London, ribs were engraved "Westley Richards" and not W. Richards.

 

[AER244]

It being a knockoff crossed my mind as well. Although I did find some allegedly legit guns stamped W Richards online. And I’d imagine it is 2.5” chambers. There are a couple of boutique manufacturers that make 2.5” stuff, but pressures might still be too high. I like it whether it shoots or not, but I’d like it to function. If I get it, I’ll definitely have a smith look it over before I shoot it. Someone had shot it in the “recent” past though. Barrels had some non blackpowder firing residue.

 

[Shadowrider]

It wouldn't be difficult to load your own blackpowder shells if you can sort the chamber and source correct components and data. MEC reloaders aren't that expensive and there's Lee also.

It's a cool looking shotgun, I can definitely see why you want it.

 

[dennishoddy]

Just a bit of trivia, European shot shells in 16 ga anyway are 2.5” because they don’t use plastic wads. Old school fiber wads only as plastic is considered a pollutant to the environment.

 

[Ahall]

Westley Richards was an English gun making firm with a good reputation, but many of their arms were machine made in large loti, rather than handmade to order, so they are not in the same league as Rigby, Greener, or Holland and Holland or other bespoke London makers.

The gun trade in England when that shotgun was made was largely a cottage business. Big names farming out work to small shops that specialized in stocking, lock work, triggers, etc. The same folks made parts for everyone and the final house that sold the gun may or may not have done the final finish work. The use of forgings and castings with continental origins, and final fit up in the isles was common.

I will address the issue of pattern welded barrels at the end of this thread, but assuming the barrels are fine"

Step 1 with any English double gun- Separate the barrels from the action and look at the proof marks. If the gun has London proofs that's typical of the upper end gun trade. Burmingham proofs are typical of the lower end of the gun trade. Ignore the London barrel address, a lot of Burmingham made guns were sold through London retail establishments and got London barrel markings.

Step 2 Understand what the marks are telling you (this applies to almost any European gun except Husqvarna's). You are looking the nitro proof and gage markings. That will tell you if it was every intended to shoot smokeless powder loads, The details in the proofs can also bracket the age of the gun as they changed over time. In some cases you will find additional proofs indicating that the gun went to other European countries and was reproofed before being accepted there. I know of a double with Austrian proofs from the late 1800s and a Spanish proofs from the 1920's.

Step 3 Chambers - as many have pointed out, the older chambers are often different in length and forcing cone dimension from what we use today. The chamber must be gaged before the correct shell can be identified. Dropping in a shell does not do the trick because modern folded shells increase in length and trying to drive shot and wad through a pleat that's restricting the forcing cone can raise chamber the pressure significantly. Also, If you check the CIP (Europe's version of SAAMI) website, the pressure ratings for shorter versions of modern shells are lower than there longer modern cousins, so simply cutting longer chambers is not a good option.

Step 4 Lock work External hammered guns have a variety of internal lock features to consider. With chamber empty and triggers released, I press on the hammers when they are in the fallen position and confirm the hammers lock in the rebounded position. Low end locks do not have the extra notch on the tumbler that does this. If you drop a loaded gun with external hammers that extra notch may prevent an uncommented discharge. Personally, I want that notch.

Step 5 With the barrels on and forearm off, lock the action, flip the gun upside down, unlock the action and shake it. That will give you a good idea of how much wear there is on the action. Gravity should hold everything closed and tight. A quality gun in good condition will lock tight. If it has more than a hair of perceptible movement, it's not a good choice for a shooter.

Pattern welded barrels - most gunsmiths will tell you not to shoot them. The reason is there have been a long history of blow ups and for a variety of reasons including but not limited to use of the wrong ammunition and corrosion weaking the barrels. When the barrels were made, they were proofed for specific shell and pressure rating. Whether the gun, after about 100 years, still has the same chamber is something you need to figure out from the proof marks. If it was rechambered on the other side of the big pond, it should have been reproofed. If it was done in the US - all bets are off. We don't have a government regulated proofing system.

Then we get to corrosion - that's the big scarry with the old guns. Bottom line is you can look at them any which way you want, and you can never see what is going on under the ribs between the barrels. Therefore you can't fully visually inspect them. The popular welding, brazing and soldering fluxes of the era were acidic and its very likely some got left behind in the cavity between the barrels, and have been attaching the weld seams in the pattern welded barrels for about 100 years. How much they have been attacked is anyone's guess. It is unlikely that a US gunsmith is going to advise you that the gun is anything more than a wall hanger. They just don't want the liability. The European smiths confronted with the same question can push the liability back on the proofing houses and have them verify the guns are still safe. We don't have that system easily available to us.

Regarding the subject gun, the photos indicate it has pattern welded barrels, so its a wall hanger until proven otherwise. I don't see a clear dolls head at the joint between the standing breach and barrels, so it may be black powder proofs only. The left hammer appears to have had the hammer spurn welded back on, a period repair would have been brazed, and the file work has not corroded, so that's recent work. Original finish is gone and there is a bag o parts zip tied to the trigger guard - what's that about. Yes, this is a cool old gun, but it has a myriad of issues that affect the value.

The final question is does the value to you exceed the price?
Thats your call not mine.