maths...
maths...
Here's a more realistic scenario:
"8 drug crazed ex-Marines with ptsd and razor sharp K-Bars (or other similar bad dudes) are outside your bedroom door. They will come in through the door and try to take your head off in 0.5 second increments. You have a choice between two handguns, lets say a 9mm and a .45. The 9mm has 16 rounds (such as a Beretta 92FS/M9) and the .45 has 8 rounds (such as a 1911). You have practiced with both and shoot each equally well. You choose."
I'll take the 9mm, thank you very much. I'd rather not have to be in a situation in which I need to hit each bad guy with exactly 1 round in a vital location. If I missed just one, one of the drug crazed ex-marines will kill me. If I had a 9mm, I'd get two chances at each. And really, you expect 8 drug crazed ex-Marines to charge in one at a time? Sober Marines would charge you as a group. Drug crazed ex-Marines would probably clog the door.
The 9mm vs .45 argument is not really about velocity vs mass. It's about a 9mm hole vs a 11.5mm hole and the extra ammunition and faster follow up shots that the 9mm round has to make up for the smaller diameter.
This is not a direct answer to the OP's question, and I'm not going to answer it, because I think that far too much is made of the ammunition.
Other factors are much more important in determining who comes out of a gunfight alive than the gun and ammunition that you pick.
First, is mental preparation. If you have not made the decision to shoot if you have to, then the gun (and by extension the cartridge) becomes irrelevant.
Second is the use of sound tactics. this includes, but is not limited to proper use of cover and concealment.
Third is bullet placement. A hit with a 38 beats the hell out of a miss with a 45, and like some other posters here have said, a hit to the medulla puts a man out of commission very quickly.
Only after all of these other factors have been accounted for does the bullet/cartidge/caliber assume any importance.
The best answer that I can gve the OP is either of them will work, so select the one that you shoot best, and don't get too hung up on the latest Master Blaster round.
One other thing that has been touched upon here is that the purpose of the shots you fire is not to kill your adversary; it is to STOP whatever actions of his that forced you to shoot in the first place.
Other factors are much more important in determining who comes out of a gunfight alive than the gun and ammunition that you pick.
First, is mental preparation. If you have not made the decision to shoot if you have to, then the gun (and by extension the cartridge) becomes irrelevant.
Second is the use of sound tactics. this includes, but is not limited to proper use of cover and concealment.
Third is bullet placement. A hit with a 38 beats the hell out of a miss with a 45, and like some other posters here have said, a hit to the medulla puts a man out of commission very quickly.
Only after all of these other factors have been accounted for does the bullet/cartidge/caliber assume any importance.
The best answer that I can gve the OP is either of them will work, so select the one that you shoot best, and don't get too hung up on the latest Master Blaster round.
One other thing that has been touched upon here is that the purpose of the shots you fire is not to kill your adversary; it is to STOP whatever actions of his that forced you to shoot in the first place.
An excellent answer. Bravo, well stated.
What kills? My mother in law's meat loaf and her chicken and dumplings.
As to the post ... training. The only thing that matters is being able to place shots(whether it is a 9mm, a .357, a .40 S&W, a .44SP or a .45ACP) on target when it counts.
As to the post ... training. The only thing that matters is being able to place shots(whether it is a 9mm, a .357, a .40 S&W, a .44SP or a .45ACP) on target when it counts.
This is not a good question. If you know anything about physics you know the two have a direct correlation to one another when talking about wound channel/dmg.
A dump truck doing 30mph will do as much damage as a smart car doing 100mph. Or something like that. In proper proportions you could lose one and gain the other and do the same amount of damage.
FWIW I carry a .45 ACP.
A dump truck doing 30mph will do as much damage as a smart car doing 100mph. Or something like that. In proper proportions you could lose one and gain the other and do the same amount of damage.
FWIW I carry a .45 ACP.
One of the studies show that the 3" and 4" barrel shooting a .45 really comes up short compared to shooting a 5" .45.
I know this dos not answer your question directly but some people think the .45 is the top of the heap, when the study (i can't remember the name) shows that a .40 S&W out of a 4" and a .357 out of a 6" maybe a 4" barrel really has more stopping power that a 3" and 4" .45.
There was a analysis of a LEO consultant from the 1970's I think that preached mass, mass, and more mass for the bullet. He really came off as the expert and police depts were hiring him to come in and teach their guys. Later on, a larger study was made of actual shooting and they found the mass was not as important as bullet placement. If you can't hit the guy in the vitals then mass of bullet is out of the window. I think at that time police depts starting going to the 9mm - less recoil more accuracy. Remember, the .40 S&W was not developed until around 1990 - 1991 and this study was before that time.
I know this dos not answer your question directly but some people think the .45 is the top of the heap, when the study (i can't remember the name) shows that a .40 S&W out of a 4" and a .357 out of a 6" maybe a 4" barrel really has more stopping power that a 3" and 4" .45.
There was a analysis of a LEO consultant from the 1970's I think that preached mass, mass, and more mass for the bullet. He really came off as the expert and police depts were hiring him to come in and teach their guys. Later on, a larger study was made of actual shooting and they found the mass was not as important as bullet placement. If you can't hit the guy in the vitals then mass of bullet is out of the window. I think at that time police depts starting going to the 9mm - less recoil more accuracy. Remember, the .40 S&W was not developed until around 1990 - 1991 and this study was before that time.
It's a two part equation. Honestly, you need good velocity and mass. The subjective part is the word "good" and what that actually means. To me, for CCW the 45 ACP has proven itself as an effective man stopper. It's slower than a 9mm, but still has enough velocity to get the job done.
This same thing comes up in archery. Some guys are so focused on speed they drop their arrow weight to get more speed. However, without enough mass, the speed doesn't deliver as much of a punch. This is why many guys will sacrifice a little speed for more mass i.e. heavier arrow.
This same thing comes up in archery. Some guys are so focused on speed they drop their arrow weight to get more speed. However, without enough mass, the speed doesn't deliver as much of a punch. This is why many guys will sacrifice a little speed for more mass i.e. heavier arrow.
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