What kills?

[b52fizzle]

Anytime I hear about this I think back to the young man killed during a Jesse James gang robbery he was shot three times by three different shooters one in the head two in the heart by three separate shooters all with black powder revolvers most likely 36 caliber and all on horseback.

There was also a study done many years ago published in guns and ammo where for the most part anything that penetrated 3-4 inches of any caliber would be lethal from 22cb to 45acp

 

[walker]

What Kills?
A. 1911
B. Glock 9mm
C. J-Frame 38
D. 22 any
E. Spoke Gun

 

[aeropb]

Penetration kills the cat. Among other animals.

 

[Werewolf]

Try out this scenario: 8 drug crazed ex-Marines with ptsd and razor sharp K-Bars (or other similar bad dudes) are outside your bedroom door. They will come in through the door and try to take your head off in two second increments. You have a choice between two handguns, lets say a 9mm (velocity) and a .45 (mass) both loaded with 8 rounds. You have practiced with both and shoot each equally well. You choose.

...FOR ME, mass wins this one easily.

This ^^^^

I think we can all agree that shot placement - all things being equal - is the be all and end all. However, if it were the only factor then none of us would need anything other than a 22 pistol.

Trouble is shot placement isn't the only factor. In life or death situations where one has never experienced the extreme resulting stress level the autonomic nervous system kicks in and the first thing to go is fine motor control. Guess what that does to shot placement?

No amount of training or - to use the common vernacular - muscle memory is going to change that simple fact of life. The only thing that will change it is to be subjected to that life and death situation enough times for the resulting stress level to decrease to a point where the loss of fine motor control goes away. Not gonna happen for folks not in the business of being placed in danger on a regular basis.

So if one find's himself in a life or death situation, counting on shot placement to stop the threat, is a really, really bad bet (think gun battles that law enforcement officers are involved in - ever wonder why so many shots are fired).

Given that the threat might not even be hit and if hit the probability of hitting a lethal point is less than that of hitting a non-lethal spot , would you rather have a light fast bullet hitting a guy in a bone like the pelvis or shoulder blade where it just stops, breaks up or ricochets or a slow heavy bullet that breaks the bone and stops the guy? (yes the slow heavy bullet may not always break a bone but it has way more chance of doing so than the light fast one does).

Given the choice, it only seems logical to choose the heaviest bullet practicable at the fastest possible speed. Limited choices to be sure when talking a handgun but that is why I choose .45ACP 230gr +P rounds to carry and practice with. If I ever have to shoot in self defense I want the bullet to make as big a hole as possible in the flesh and break bones if it hits one.

 

[MoBoost]

Round 2!!!
Yay!

This ^^^^

I think we can all agree that shot placement - all things being equal - is the be all and end all. However, if it were the only factor then none of us would need anything other than a 22 pistol.

More like 20 caliber - give it a few years and you'll see: right now those rounds are considered armor piercing and banned from civilian use.

Trouble is shot placement isn't the only factor. In life or death situations where one has never experienced the extreme resulting stress level the autonomic nervous system kicks in and the first thing to go is fine motor control. Guess what that does to shot placement?

No amount of training or - to use the common vernacular - muscle memory is going to change that simple fact of life. The only thing that will change it is to be subjected to that life and death situation enough times for the resulting stress level to decrease to a point where the loss of fine motor control goes away. Not gonna happen for folks not in the business of being placed in danger on a regular basis.

So if one find's himself in a life or death situation, counting on shot placement to stop the threat, is a really, really bad bet (think gun battles that law enforcement officers are involved in - ever wonder why so many shots are fired).

And after all that your conclusion is bigger bullet, not more bullets aka higher capacity.

Given that the threat might not even be hit and if hit the probability of hitting a lethal point is less than that of hitting a non-lethal spot , would you rather have a light fast bullet hitting a guy in a bone like the pelvis or shoulder blade where it just stops, breaks up or ricochets or a slow heavy bullet that breaks the bone and stops the guy? (yes the slow heavy bullet may not always break a bone but it has way more chance of doing so than the light fast one does).

Any proof?

Given the choice, it only seems logical to choose the heaviest bullet practicable at the fastest possible speed. Limited choices to be sure when talking a handgun but that is why I choose .45ACP 230gr +P rounds to carry and practice with. If I ever have to shoot in self defense I want the bullet to make as big a hole as possible in the flesh and break bones if it hits one.

Your logic doesn't necessarily lead to throwing the pistol like some folks want us to do, but it sure leads to 45-70 derringer.

 

[Werewolf]

Round 2!!!
Yay!


And after all that your conclusion is bigger bullet, not more bullets aka higher capacity.

Your logic doesn't necessarily lead to throwing the pistol like some folks want us to do, but it sure leads to 45-70 derringer.

If one's tactic is gonna be spray and pray you might as well spray and pray with the heaviest, fastest and practical bullet available.

 

[MoBoost]

If one's tactic is gonna be spray and pray you might as well spray and pray with the heaviest, fastest and practical bullet available.

I understand your logic - so, why aren't you carrying 45-70 derringer?
It's heaviest - 400+gn
It's fastest - 1500+fps
It's plenty practical - concealable and deployable

 

[NikatKimber]

As you said werewolf, it's not total loss of all function, it's loss of fine motor control (if that); so we're not talking "spray and pray," we're talking center-mass instead of between the eyes. I'd rather have 15+1 rounds of 9mm that I can put into center of mass fast vs the 8+1 of the .45.

 

[Werewolf]

I understand your logic - so, why aren't you carrying 45-70 derringer?
It's heaviest - 400+gn
It's fastest - 1500+fps
It's plenty practical - concealable and deployable

Your last premise fails the sniff test...
Which entirely destroys the straw man argument you've tossed out into the wind.

A derringer, especially a high caliber one is NOT Practical and I imagine you know that. Or would if you'd ever fired a high caliber derringer. You've got to get close enough to actually hit something with it 1st and if using a 45-70 (does a 45-70 derringer even exist) unless the shooter were superman they'd have a sprained or broken wrist.

You're arguing MoBoost just for the sake of arguing - which can be a hoot I will admit. I've been know to do that too.

But it's getting us no where and is just wasting bandwidth. You go light and fast; I'll go heavy and slow. Hopefully neither of us will ever have to test our judgement re: what works best.

 

[MoBoost]

A derringer, especially a high caliber one is NOT Practical and I imagine you know that.

Why imagnie - just go shoot one.

Or would if you'd ever fired a high caliber derringer.

I have ... have you?

You've got to get close enough to actually hit something with it 1st and if using a 45-70

How far are planning to shoot in SD situation? 2 center mass at 10 yards was plenty accurate for me.

(does a 45-70 derringer even exist)

yes, a while back H&H was giving it out for "wild rides"

unless the shooter were superman they'd have a sprained or broken wrist.

non-superman human got a hammer bite .... something you wouldnt notice in death/life situation


Does that cover all your problems with 45-70 derringer, or are you going to man up and admit that sacrificing capacity down to two rounds is not worth it despite a huge power gain.


I like to argue in search of truth ... I think everybody is entitled to an opinion, I just take opinion supported by logic and data seriously. I've changed my mind on quite a few topics on this site due to that .... I love being proven wrong! I said it before, and I'll say it again - nothing rubs me wrong way then "agreeing to disagree" - all that means that both arguments were weak, and truth hides somewhere else.