Why Bodycams are a Bad Idea

[trekrok]

There's several key points missing in your second paragraph that are pretty pervasive and systemic. In Ferguson, MO for instance, a higher percentage of the black population had a record, tickets, run ins with the law? Why? Were they as a people different? IIRC the review done there indicated that more enforcement was sent there, more tickets issued there, more people were stopped there. So naturally the incidence of people getting charged, ticketed, etc will be higher. If the same level of enforcement was targeted and applied in the white areas with no biases, I bet the outcome would be the same. For instance when I lived in Dallas, I knew people that got pulled over/harassed all the time because of the neighborhood they were in. But I had friends that could literally smoke a joint in front of the cops in the "good part of town" and get waved at. Different areas, different enforcement, different outcomes, and different permanent records.

As far the LEO's having a hard job --- there's lot of hard jobs out there. On the other hand, there's not a lot of hard jobs where people can kill other humans and likely walk and be protected by unions, QI and public perception being on their side. Again, hard job, but a high standard to bear. We could go back to the question "how can we make the job easier?" That could get into the "defund the police" argument. Like, seriously, why not have trained people go respond to mental health calls? I'm personally sick and tired of autistic people getting shot by cops for instance. Why not have social workers go deal with homeless folks? What else --- maybe instead of needing to take someone in RIGHT NOW and "tazing" them to death with a bullet, we look at capturing under better circumstances? Tail them, wait for backup, etc.

Are those perfect answers? No. I'm not an authority on the figure, but just a dude thinking of ways that might be better than what we've got. But until the bootlickers realize that the feet inside those are connected to real humans rather than perfect gods, things won't change. What will change is that eventually the protests against violence (that are met usually with extraordinary violence), will descend into war soon enough if things don't actually start changing.

That's the reason I used arrests for violent crimes, not petty crimes and tickets. I've seen some evidence that the 'driving while black' thing happens. I don't think it's as pervasive or necessarily as simple as depicted though. Context matters. I suppose you could still argue that blacks are arrested for violent crimes in instances where whites would not have been. But I don't think that's the case on any significant basis.

I'm softening on QI somewhat. I don't think it should be wiped out and allow individual cops to be sued. Maybe the the employer, in certain instances. There has to be a valve of some type in place or this could turn into a ridiculous farce of lawsuits and waste of resources.

I assume your "tazing them to death with a bullet" refers to Daunte Wright. This is an example of what I was talking about. Perfect judgment and execution demanded in a split second. Based on the video, I don't believe anyone that says more than a mistake was made is being honest. Or they are are SO biased they are blind. Should ALL resistance result in immediate stand down unless the cop is in immediate peril? Do you see that as workable? Do you think it would take 5 seconds before every arrest involved resistance? Hypothetically, what would have happened if Daunte was allowed to take off in his car, but then hit a tree, ejecting and killing his girlfriend. Would the family's attorney sue? Would they win, since the cop had the opportunity to prevent it?

So someone calls 911 because of a mental health crisis and you want to send, I assume, unarmed social workers to handle it? I'm going to pass on that job.

 

[Rez Exelon]

That's the reason I used arrests for violent crimes, not petty crimes and tickets. I've seen some evidence that the 'driving while black' thing happens. I don't think it's as pervasive or necessarily as simple as depicted though. Context matters. I suppose you could still argue that blacks are arrested for violent crimes in instances where whites would not have been. But I don't think that's the case on any significant basis.

I'm softening on QI somewhat. I don't think it should be wiped out and allow individual cops to be sued. Maybe the the employer, in certain instances. There has to be a valve of some type in place or this could turn into a ridiculous farce of lawsuits and waste of resources.

I assume your "tazing them to death with a bullet" refers to Daunte Wright. This is an example of what I was talking about. Perfect judgment and execution demanded in a split second. Based on the video, I don't believe anyone that says more than a mistake was made is being honest. Or they are are SO biased they are blind. Should ALL resistance result in immediate stand down unless the cop is in immediate peril? Do you see that as workable? Do you think it would take 5 seconds before every arrest involved resistance? Hypothetically, what would have happened if Daunte was allowed to take off in his car, but then hit a tree, ejecting and killing his girlfriend. Would the family's attorney sue? Would they win, since the cop had the opportunity to prevent it?

So someone calls 911 because of a mental health crisis and you want to send, I assume, unarmed social workers to handle it? I'm going to pass on that job.

I don't think there needs to be perfect execution and judgement, but I do think that there need to be an expectation that when in doubt the individual cop will not be the judge and executioner. In my work, if I have a reasonable expectation that something I am about to do (even if I need to do it) is going to break stuff, I am not going to move forward without a plan to, at minimum, minimize risk. I can't eliminate risk, but I can minimize it, or push the job to a timeframe with lower impact cost. Same basic concept here --- you can't eliminate the fact that lethal force may be used in a situation, but you can attempt to minimize it.

Circling back to the thread topic --- what are we seeing? That even WITH the bodycams the pictures of events painted by LEO's are often times "rosy at best" right? But people keep believing their side without fact checking it, and when they do look under the hood we see incidents like this. How much of this was going on BEFORE the cameras? If they are this brazen now while being recorded, what was happening before that? That's a contributing question to why this stuff matters so much more now, because of the implication that in the past so much lying could have happened.

As far as lawsuits go, I heard an interesting idea --- the city wouldn't pay out a lawsuit --- the union would. That's an interesting thought experiment.

 

[okierider]

Sounds like the VOLUNTEERS need to be coddled more, poor things just have it rough. Golly if someone would of told them it was going to be real, dangerous work perhaps they could of went into forum moderation or something more benign.
Men who were drafted and then died for this country should have more done for the families they left behind.
If your volunteering crew can’t handle business it seems clear what they need to do.
Bunch of cowards, every last one.

Does it mean less if you volunteer and die for this country? I have lost a friend who signed on to die in another country and he was by no means a coward. Volunteering for a chance to die in the sand or being an officer of the law in todays political climate is anything but cowardice.
I wholeheartedly agree when you say we should have done more for our Nam era vets and their families. I am part of one of those families and while I did not lose my Dad physically ,I did lose him mentally . He was incapable of having a Dad/Son relationship until shortly before he passed . At least I got those few years and will cherish those until I die. Some Dads gave all and their families did not get that blessing. I am with you in that we owe them.

 

[okierider]

Sounds a lot like healthcare. GOP says "too expensive" and Dems say "Lets pay for a good system". No different here. I don't care if I pay taxes as long as my taxes give a return on investment. Things like quality streets, law enforcement, disaster plans, infrastructure, rational laws, things like that. I see a lot of people on a specific political side though that says NO MATTER WHAT that taxes are bad. Well, then we get what we get.

As far as avoiding cops --- yeah. I don't make an effort to hang out with them. I've met a lot of ones I think were good guys. I've supported LEO events, but yeah, no, I don't go out of my way to make contact. Too much video of people making that mistake. And right now with the exception of Chauvin (who a lot of folks on this board didn't want convicted) there's a real trend of cops shooting people under questionable circumstances and getting a paid vacation. Or them shooting folks like Daniel Shaver, getting cleared and then filing for permanent disability for PTSD for executing someone. So no, I don't expect anyone to be super friendly until a lot of stuff changes.

As far as being overworked and underpaid? Let's look at the systemic defunding of teachers across the country and how teachers are supposed to overcome. And for the record, I support paying them a heck of a lot more than they get too. Want to correct the balance? "Defund the police". Sure it's the worst slogan and tag line possible, but the concept of taking responsibilities away from the cops and transferring them to people specifically trained to handle it shouldn't be all that crazy. Yeah, yeah, it'll cost them funds to pay for the others, but they need that mental break right? Should be a no brainer.

What others would you send , and under what circumstance? Are they armed so when the specific training fails they can protect themselves or others? That is still a Cop who has to make a split second decision. Whole lot of different ways to think about this and to think the people we put in office are trying to come up with some viable solution just gives me zero warm fuzzies. The only way I think we get any where near what reform you suggest we have to have term limits. Inept and corrupt leadership for decades at a time is what has brought us to where we are..

 

[Retired]

So is that how you would like your 73 yr old mother/ sister/ wife/ daughter/ grandmother to be treated.

Well I suppose justice will prevail. Both of the professionals involved have been arrested and charged for the abuse of the old lady.

 

[JR777]

You say that now, but wait until you need to call one.

I had someone making death threats against me one time, and they were pretty credible because the guy was crazy to begin with, and he had just lost everything, so he was in a **** it all kind of mood on top of being nuts. Went to the cops, know what they told me?

BUY A GUN

The only thing cops are good for is cuffing whoever is still alive by the time they get there, and these days they don't really seem care whether it's the victim or perpetrator.

 

[Rez Exelon]

I had someone making death threats against me one time, and they were pretty credible because the guy was crazy to begin with, and he had just lost everything, so he was in a **** it all kind of mood on top of being nuts. Went to the cops, know what they told me?

BUY A GUN

The only thing cops are good for is cuffing whoever is still alive by the time they get there, and these days they don't really seem care whether it's the victim or perpetrator.

Had a dude hopped up on drugs and alcohol trying to bust down my door one time -- long story short, I didn't have to fire a shot but at one point was drawn on him. Cops took 27 minutes to show up and then at one point told my wife I was in the wrong for how I handled it. Meanwhile the EMSA guys were telling him he was lucky they weren't dealing with a bullet wound on him instead of bear spray.

27 minutes of a guy wanting to break down my door in the middle of the night, and that cop thinks I was out of line to be armed and ready? He wasn't there for the 27 minutes of dealing with the guy. I stress that because an awful lot can happen inside 27 minutes. Yeah, they didn't care... just took the report.

 

[MacFromOK]

Had a dude hopped up on drugs and alcohol trying to bust down my door one time -- long story short, I didn't have to fire a shot but at one point was drawn on him. Cops took 27 minutes to show up and then at one point told my wife I was in the wrong for how I handled it. Meanwhile the EMSA guys were telling him he was lucky they weren't dealing with a bullet wound on him instead of bear spray.

27 minutes of a guy wanting to break down my door in the middle of the night, and that cop thinks I was out of line to be armed and ready? He wasn't there for the 27 minutes of dealing with the guy. I stress that because an awful lot can happen inside 27 minutes. Yeah, they didn't care... just took the report.

When seconds count, the police are only minutes away...

Not sure what else they could expect ya to do.

 

[Broncos]

Retired officer of 35 years here Now I wish I had a body cam in many situations