Wisconsin protest, a sign of things to come?

[Jefpainthorse]

So you are saying a small union contractor does not do a good job
Have no skills in craftsmanship,and are higher priced with no customer skills?
You are not correct in my opinion and I disagree with your assumption
But you can believe what you want as will I .

Hmmm... my crappy union skill set has taken over some major construction sites that were started with superior non organized skill sets... only to turn the job around... get it back on track and finished at a profit.


Dont confuse the piss poor perfomance of a few individuals with the "way things are" in the big picture. Every group of people has it's "10 percenters".

 

[Jefpainthorse]

If I don't like the deal the dealership offers I am never afraid they are going to break my legs when I try to leave the lot.

Are you saying behind the back closed door deals never happen with the unions? Are you saying that unions don't conspire against the company to get the best deal they can? As a whole collective type thing? That the employees don't 'collude' on their offers?

I seem to remember it more like . . . . . offers, counter offers, offers, counter offers, strike, threaten people who will take the offer, and sometimes destroy company property, agreement. Not always, but isn't once enough?

Bob... back door deals? I wont say there has never been any of that kind of thing going on.

Most of the bad stuff that gives Unions a bad rap gets you sent to Federal prision these days. In short order.

YOU really need to look up what defines a conspiracy or collusion. When you make tactics or stategy to win a business plan.... those actions are neither.

You probably should look up what a 'red herring' is in debate. It's an intellectual flaw where the question is asked... answers are made.. and the next question takes a subtle shift off topice... a mental bait and switch.

It's not becoming... and you really seem to be smarter than that, Bob.

 

[Billybob]

I know a lot of taxpayers who feel that way right now too. Regardless of where you stand on the union issue, it is gonna be a rough road for everybody, not just the union employees ...

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that the firing of everyone is a way to get around tenure. Bad teachers are bad teachers and the tenure process has been a way to protect them for too many years. There is always one way to skin a cat. Some ways are more painful to the cat than others.

I agree 100% with your first statement, but I feel unions will take a big hit because let's face it some of them have acted in ways to help themselves at the expense of the public. This is not to say all unions are bad or that all union members are bad.
I also think the backlash against both unions and Gov. employees will grow as thing get worse, the reason being is that many are feeling pressured by the situation our country is in and see others who ignore it, are parts of groups who are believed to have contributed to the problems and profited or enjoy the double standard but remain silent, (to keep theirs) even when made aware of criminal acts that harm the public as a whole.

The issue of teachers is a perfect example, there was an AP investigative article a couple of years ago that revealed the cover ups and protections afforded to pedophile teachers in the system, (it's too long to post but I'll email it to anyone who wants it) when you add this to the fact that our schools are failing in many cases and often "Johnny can't read" when he graduates, (but he's a football star) people wonder why the "good" people in that system haven't spoken out.
The public has been taught by the Gov. to recognize quilt by association in order to control, silence or oppress certain groups, I now see that turning and guilt by association being applied to others, and many feel they deserve it.

 

[webmogul]

So you can't get a schedule you like with your employer....
Quite and get another job!
Let some who is willing to works those hours get hired on to replace you.
Don't like how your company is being run.
Start your own!
You will not find a country or state more conducive to the small business.
But if you insist on somebody else controlling your compensation without any consideration for your individual effort or skill by all means union up

Amen... with the minor exception of "...or state more conductive..." part Either way, instead of complaining and making someone pay for what you don't like, leave. that is the beauty of this country, free will to work where you want; oh, except for those states that make it mandatory to join a union to have some particular job. There is nothing more messed up than that.

Seniority? What a load. Seniority only means something is you really are more valuable to the company, in which case it is a mute point because they won't get rid of you anyway. Just because John Q. Public has worked for some place for 10 or 15 years or whatever doesn't make them any more valuable than they guy who has worked for 2. Time alone is not valuable. Teachers are a perfect example. A bad teacher protected for 15 years is still a bad teacher.

I've seen many "senior" people who were stuck in doing things in a way that only hindered productivity or innovation. Or they had to protect their little kingdom and let everyone know they have been around a while and everyone was going to wait on them, just because they could. On the flip side I've seen other senior people who knew how to adapt, how to spot talent and knew how to move things along. Those people were the real super stars of the company, and were very well taken care of. It may not have always been in their paycheck, but their work life was far superior.

In case no one has seen it, here is FDR's (no one would mistake him for a small government guy) words on public (not private) unions:

"... Meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the government. All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations ... The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for ... officials ... to bind the employer ... The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives ...

"Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of government employees. Upon employees in the federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people ... This obligation is paramount ... A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent ... to prevent or obstruct ... Government ... Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government ... is unthinkable and intolerable."

 

[Jefpainthorse]

Don't want to take the risk? So why is it OK for "organized" employees to hijack the business of someone who did? I've never understood it.

Actually I am not willing to take the risk. One in 5 small business fail (for reasons of finance) within 5 years.

I keep seeing a recurring theme here: If you dont like it quit. Or the other variation- Start your own shop.

If we extend the logical outcome... If everyone who could do either did it- we would have a society where the economy is basically 2 guys sitting in Mc Donalds selling insurance to each other.

Not every body can be the Cheif... but you got to keep the Indians fed.

Hijack a business. Now point me to a link where the big bad UNION hijacked a business? When a business gets "organized" it usually because the employees have been shorted or double dealt with till they band together to make things better. Getting a Union in place is a hard thing to do. If it was easy we'd probably have more of them.

Do a little light reading about the City OF Stillwater and how and why the Electric Department got Unionized a couple of years ago.

 

[Billybob]

What a political waste of time and dollars. A judge will invoke an order to keep schools open... and teachers paid until this all gets settled.

And if the state then goes bankrupt is the judge to blame? And if the state doesn't have the money will this judge or another then invoke an order for a tax hike?

 

[Werewolf]

Unions or no unions good workers will always be able to find work. I belong to a union and other than taking my money every month I don't really know what it does. Locally we have great management and keep the union out of our business. I work for a huge company and except for two exceptions the union reps I have met are the laziest, most incompetent, most worthless workers out here. I could leave but honestly the union crosses my mind about 30 seconds every month, it matters that much. I stay because I enjoy my job, my co-workers (including management), and especially the schedule.

Oklahoma is a right to work state. You don't have to be a member of the union to work where you work. You don't have to pay them dues. Closed shop work places are illegal and a big no-no.

Sounds like you've really got no use for the union at your workplace so one wonders why you are a member since you don't have to be?

 

[Jefpainthorse]

And if the state then goes bankrupt is the judge to blame? And if the state doesn't have the money will this judge or another then invoke an order for a tax hike?

Alternative 2 (since that's the hammer they've hauled out) Shutter the schools.. send the kids home... send every 2 income family in RI scrambling to find a private school, day care or homeschool situation for their kids.

Sounds like a plan to me.... have the working parents in the state would be taking time off of quiting jobs to care for kids. Income would fall, tax revenues plummet.... social chaos would prevail.

You are not going to "go bankrupt" while you talk about making a new agreement with the work force. Heck... even if you *did* go bankrupt the courts would allow re negoitiation of contracts and adress creditors and debt while you "kept the lights on" and ran the schools or departments.


Seems like hyperbole is the word of the day.

 

[Billybob]

Alternative 2 (since that's the hammer they've hauled out) Shutter the schools.. send the kids home... send every 2 income family in RI scrambling to find a private school, day care or homeschool situation for their kids.

Sounds like a plan to me.... have the working parents in the state would be taking time off of quiting jobs to care for kids. Income would fall, tax revenues plummet.... social chaos would prevail.

You are not going to "go bankrupt" while you talk about making a new agreement with the work force. Heck... even if you *did* go bankrupt the courts would allow re negoitiation of contracts and adress creditors and debt while you "kept the lights on" and ran the schools or departments.


Seems like hyperbole is the word of the day.

The Fed is printing money, (which many contend is unconstitutional to begin with) to cover what we don't have as it is, it's said we're incurring a debt that we'll not even be able to pay the interest on and that it will pass to our children and grandchildren.
Maybe alternative 2 is the right answer, it would be hard for everyone to keep ignoring the issues. The same has been said about the wars we're now in, that is if the draft is re-instituted it will personally affect many more Americans directly and therefor give them incentive to think and evaluate the situation differently.
Greece almost went bankrupt recently and accepted a bailout from the IMF, google it and see how that's working for them.
Then there's Romania...

[UNITED NATIONS, May 20 -- With Romania wracked by the most serious protests since its 1989 revolution, Inner City Press on May 20 asked International Monetary Fund spokesperson Caroline Atkinson if the IMF would consider re-negotiating the 25% pay cut to public sector employees portrayed by the government as a condition for receiving a Greece-like bailout.]

There's no doubt where we are but most ignore it, we also know what some of the issues are that got us here like the mortgage frauds being exposed in several banks now, we'll see if the banks will be held any more accountable than the Gov.

The question might be will America sell it's children into further debt or go for a bailout along with the IMF directives to address the deficit which are causing cuts that Greeks have been protesting about so as to try to keep our standard of living?
We think little of people in poor countries who are sometimes forced to sell children to feed the rest of the family, what can be said about what we're doing to ours?

As things get tougher more of our people are being put on the Gov. plan, (welfare) there are only two likely results,
1. Social programs are cut leaving the country overwhelmed with the poor/unemployed, second great depression?
2. The number of welfare voters and poor raise so as to allow them to "outvote" those who they perceive as the ones who caused the problems and "robbed" them, they will of course vote for revenge and do anything to
help their position as they've seen others do.

I'm not saying any of this is right, I'm saying we could find ourselves with no good choices to fix our current situation, I honestly hope I'm wrong.

 

[1shot(bob)]

You guys are missing the point. There is a systematic attempt to limit the rights of working people to protect themselves across the board. It doesn't matter if that is tort reform, limiting the rights of workers to collective bargaining, or any of the other abominations these so called "conservatives" are inflicting on the American people. Living in an oligarchy is just as unpleasant as living in a nanny state.

Why do you think those are our only two choices?