concealed carry on school property

[Rod Snell]

FINALLY!! Someone understands the question. Thank you for furnishing this info. I am not separated from the vehicle but am out of it and maybe as far as 30 to 40 feet from it. I am going to say that that falls within the "in or near" requirement.

Sorry, unless you have another person physically in the car, the section is irrelevant. It is located in the SDA section about leaving your gun with an non-CHL person in a vehicle, not in the section about carry at school.

Trying to "cherry pick" passages of different sections of the law to try to justify having done a violation is what we called "barracks lawyer" logic in the military. Everybody in the brig could explain why he wasn't "really guilty" because of some twisted logic. IANAL; I was a military magistrate.

Suggest you pay a lawyer who specializes in the SDA to explain the risk.

 

[Fatboy Joe]

Sorry, unless you have another person physically in the car, the section is irrelevant. It is located in the SDA section about leaving your gun with an non-CHL person in a vehicle, not in the section about carry at school.

Trying to "cherry pick" passages of different sections of the law to try to justify having done a violation is what we called "barracks lawyer" logic in the military. Everybody in the brig could explain why he wasn't "really guilty" because of some twisted logic. IANAL; I was a military magistrate.

Suggest you pay a lawyer who specializes in the SDA to explain the risk.

It is not "cherry picking." When the law is not clear, there is room for discussion. I believe the arguement could be made that walking a child to the door of a school isin't leaving the vehicle unattended. That is like saying that your child who is playing on the playground 25 feet from you is unattended, even though you are there and watching them. The problem is there is no real court cases to define the law.

To go back to the original poster, it is good that you are trying to be a legal gun owner/carrier. However, I can't forsee any circumstance that would cause any detection of you leaving the firearm in your car while you drop your kid off unless you don't take the proper safeguards to secure you firearm.

Edit: Look up unattended in the dictionary. It doesn't exist according to Merriam-Webster. A lawyer would have a field day with this also.

Here is another definition from Houghton:

un·at·tend·ed (n-tndd)
adj.
1. Not being attended to, looked after, or watched: an unattended fire.
2. Having no attendants: unattended gasoline pumps.
3. Not being paid attention to or listened to: an unattended question.

 

[NikatKimber]

****disclaimer! I am NOT a lawyer! Nor do I agree with gun free zones!****

Disregarding any other legal BS, my take on "near" and "attended" in this setting would be this:

There must be no possibility of someone getting access to your car (and the included firearm) before you could (near), or without your knowledge (unattended). At a school drop off for most schools I've seen, that would pretty much mean arms length. So even if the "in or near" applied to the school situation (not arguing one way or another here), it doesn't allow any more than stepping out of the vehicle. Closing the door and engaging in a conversation could be seen as "unattended."

 

[Fatboy Joe]

Nik, I agree. I am not a lawyer, and didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn last night. There is no case law on the subject which makes it a discussion point. It is up to each individual person to determine what risks are worth taking and what are not. For me, I was in this situation last year. I took the risk and walked my daughter to her room everday and left my firearm in the car, on school property. It was out of sight for less than 2 minutes. The only way to avoid it was driving to and from school and work without it and that wasn't happening. That being said, I don't carry it to school functions like football games, assemblies and so forth.

 

[NikatKimber]

Nik, I agree. I am not a lawyer, and didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn last night. There is no case law on the subject which makes it a discussion point. It is up to each individual person to determine what risks are worth taking and what are not. For me, I was in this situation last year. I took the risk and walked my daughter to her room everday and left my firearm in the car, on school property. It was out of sight for less than 2 minutes. The only way to avoid it was driving to and from school and work without it and that wasn't happening. That being said, I don't carry it to school functions like football games, assemblies and so forth.

I think that situation was clearly in the wrong. You were not attending your vehicle.

 

[Fatboy Joe]

I know it was wrong, but I took what I felt was a calculated risk. Being mugged, robbed, carjacked in North Tulsa, or leaving my gun in a church school parking lot.

 

[vvvvvvv]

It is not "cherry picking." When the law is not clear, there is room for discussion.

It most certainly is cherry picking. The law is very clear here.

21 O.S. § 1277:

A. It shall be unlawful for any person in possession of a valid concealed handgun license issued pursuant to the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act to carry any concealed handgun into any of the following places:

...

4. Any elementary or secondary school;

...

B. For purposes of paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 of subsection A of this section, the prohibited place does not include and specifically excludes the following [parking areas]:
​

Therefore, it is illegal to possess a firearm, loaded or unload, concealed or unconcealed, on any elementary or secondary school property, parking lot or not.

As others have said, the "unattended" part you are referencing is meant to protect other occupants of a vehicle in the event that you leave your firearm in the vehicle when entering a prohibited place. It is very clear in its intent and is in a completely separate section (not to mention separate Act with no reference to various sections prohibiting firearms on school property), and therefore does not apply as you wish it would. Even if it did make a reference, you have to consider scope. 21 O.S. § 1277 is much narrower in scope than 21 O.S. § 1289.7 and therefore controlling barring an Attorney General or Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals opinion.

When it comes to the law, there's no such thing as "reading between the lines". Yes, there's some grey, but the restrictions, liabilities, burdens, and allowances are there in plain text.

As others have said, if you don't agree with it, contact your legislators. However, I would like to add that if they don't respond in a favorable way, go run for office and force them to respond.

 

[Fatboy Joe]

Veggie Meat, that is incorrect. Let's make sure we use the full language because in law, that is 99% of the time grey until it becomes case law, it is important...

21 O.S. § 1277:

4. Any elementary, secondary, or vocational-technical school property;

21 O.S. § 1280.1:

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to have in his or her possession on any public or private school property or while in any school bus or vehicle used by any school for transportation of students or teachers any firearm or weapon designated in Section 1272 of this title, except as provided in subsection C of this section or as otherwise authorized by law.B. "School property" means any publicly or privately owned property held for purposes of elementary, secondary or vocational-technical education, and shall not include property owned by public school districts or private educational entities where such property is leased or rented to an individual or corporation and used for purposes other than educational.

C. Firearms and weapons are allowed on school property and deemed not in violation of subsection A of this section as follows:

1. A gun or knife designed for hunting or fishing purposes kept in a privately owned vehicle and properly displayed or stored as required by law, or a handgun carried in a vehicle pursuant to a valid handgun license authorized by the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, provided such vehicle containing said gun or knife is driven onto school property only to transport a student to and from school and such vehicle does not remain unattended on school property;

I have said several times that the words unattended would be the question. It is not against the law to carry on school property as long as you are in compliant with Sec. 1280.1

 

[vvvvvvv]

And that clearly states that you can only transport a firearm onto school property for the sole purpose of transporting a student. It does not mean that you can leave the vehicle and go inside. If you go through various OCCA and SCOTUS cases, you'll find that unattended is generally interpreted as "not under immediate supervision". Arguably, if you step away from the vehicle, you are no longer attending the vehicle as the vehicle is no longer reasonably within your attention.

To me, it's not a grey area. It's clearly written, and the legislative intent is very clear, and would undoubtedly be a losing case no matter what resources you have for legal services.

As for § 1277, I intentionally quoted the new law that goes into effect November 1 because this thread is likely to be referenced by many at that point.

If you want it fixed, call your legislators. Maybe they won't kill it during their unconstitutional legislative process.

 

[SMS]

In C.,1. above it states that it can be left in the vehicle if stored in accordance to the SDA act as long as the vehicle doesn't "remain" unattended.

The law does not say a firearm can be left in a vehicle....it says it can be in a vehicle, providing the vehicle is not left unattended. That is a subtle yet significant distinction.