Free trade

[Stephen Cue]

Companies are free to move their work oversees in as much as Americans are free to decline purchasing their products not made by American workers. The market will dictate. Does that mean that I dont think that Boards of directors are greedy F**ks that cannot share the wealth earned on the backs of labor; no. Because of my Christian beliefs, I think self-rewarding execs that do not want to share profits with the labor are evil, selfish bastards that will one day reap what they sow. They suck for the most part in my opinion. But thats my opinion and it means diddly.

I believe in some regulation, it keeps businesses from harming innocent people, environments, and property. I like tax incentives for companies that actually pay taxes and have American workers. I like higher taxes for companies that shirk paying taxes and move oversees. IMHO a company that still has headquarters here but workers oversees is not an American company and should face high import fees.

Im feel that there is still such thing as being American and being a patriot and many rich Americans obviously seem to disregard that when they reach a certain level of wealth. Being American seems to no longer mean anything in a society overrun by ubiquitous globalization. Business has no Nationalism, Money is Nationalism and has their loyalty oath.

As a union man, I believe unions will ALWAYS have a place in our society. Companies have a right offer whatever compensation to workers they want, however the workers also have a right to band together to decide if what the company offers if acceptable. If the company can garner enough workers with small wages and unsafe working conditions, so be it.

Unions are nothing more than a form of E Pluribus Unum. We're no different than a single executive that negotiates for a job/contract; we just carry more weight. Strength in numbers. Its pure capitalism. If we cannot bargain, we cant work. We take our chances pricing ourselves out of a job just like a company takes its chances going out of business from inadequate labor. The market will dictate.

As a shop steward I tell my fellow crew members they cannot get angry with the company for trying to screw them, we can only get upset with our union for allowing it.

 

[soonerwings]

Unions are nothing more than a form of E Pluribus Unum. We're no different than a single executive that negotiates for a job/contract; we just carry more weight. Strength in numbers. Its pure capitalism. If we cannot bargain, we cant work. We take our chances pricing ourselves out of a job just like a company takes its chances going out of business from inadequate labor. The market will dictate.

This is only true in right to work states. In states that force union membership capitalism is not at work. In right to work states, I'll agree that unions take the chance of pricing themselves out of business. In forced unionization states I'd argue that union wage setting borders on an antitrust practice. I don't believe that the market can truly dictate outside of a right to work state.

 

[Edgar Derby]

Unions only work in a fair trade economy. It appears slave labor works in a free trade economy. That's my over simplified opinion.

 

[Stephen Cue]

This is only true in right to work states. In states that force union membership capitalism is not at work. In right to work states, I'll agree that unions take the chance of pricing themselves out of business. In forced unionization states I'd argue that union wage setting borders on an antitrust practice. I don't believe that the market can truly dictate outside of a right to work state.

No argument here. Right to work though does not equal job nirvana. Oklahoma has not had near the job growth that NON-Oklahoma loving former Oklahoma governor Keating promised.

Where does he live now BTW, DC? figures.

 

[soonerwings]

No argument here. Right to work though does not equal job nirvana. Oklahoma has not had near the job growth that NON-Oklahoma loving former Oklahoma governor Keating promised.

Where does he live now BTW, DC? figures.

Agreed. As one of my earlier posts indicated, right to work is not the only factor that companies consider when choosing where to open their next location.

 

[dutchwrangler]

Disagree on both counts. I believe that unions drive up prices on goods by increasing labor costs. I also believe that fuel costs rising as a result of excessive speculation (yes...I think a LACK of regulation is actually hurting us all in this instance) also drives up prices by driving up costs. I believe that simple supply and demand can drive up prices independent of the government. As far as businesses not paying taxes, here's how I view it. You may be correct in that large corporations don't pay taxes, HOWEVER most businesses in the U.S. are small sole proprietorships and LLCs. Under the sole proprietorships and LLCs, the companies are treated as "pass through" entities with regards to profit. More simply put, the profit income of the business and the income of the owner are one and the same. When Joe the Plumber (remember that guy?) pays income tax, his business is paying taxes.

Unions as mentioned are but a small factor in the scheme of the US economy. Their influence on prices is limited to the point of not even taking them into account.

There is not a business anywhere in the world that pays taxes. All taxes turned over by a business to a government are nothing more than an additional cost on the end price of a product. You as the CEO might pay a personal income tax, but the business doesn't. Again... all government mandates, regulatory burderns and taxes are factored into the price of the product or service provided and passed onto the consumer. Prove me wrong.

Let's take the industry I'm familiar with... trucking which moves nearly all product around the US. You think the trucking company pays for the increase in fuel prices when taxes on fuel goes up? If you do you're mistaken. When fuel prices increase, the trucking company increases shipping rates to the manufacturers, farmers, industry, etc. wanting to sell product. They in turn increase the price of their product that goes on a shelf or served in a restaurant. It is the final consumer who always pays for all these forms of taxation. Again, prove me wrong with facts.

I recommend a great book on understanding economics: "Economics in One Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt. Starting with the Broken Window Theory and working through all the governmental crap that burdens business with increased meddling, it'll provide those willing to learn the actual way that economics functions. Whether it's a mom and pop corner shop or big oil... there isn't a business entity that pays taxes. Granted that big business in this day and age is cozy with government (corporatism) and as such is granted exemptions based on one thing and one thing only... kissing government ass. But that issue takes us full circle to keeping the size of the central government small and limited in power which I've brought up elsewhere on this forum time and time again.

I'll repeat for everyone... government is not your friend. It only desires to enslave, be it economically or at worst, physically. Reject government interference in your lives, read the Founding documents and stop paying lip service to Liberty.

 

[soonerwings]

Unions as mentioned are but a small factor in the scheme of the US economy. Their influence on prices is limited to the point of not even taking them into account.

Until you start talking about products made almost exclusively in forced unionization states. Auto industry anyone?

You as the CEO might pay a personal income tax, but the business doesn't.

Our tax code does not distinguish between the owner and the business when it comes to the LLC or sole proprietorship. This being the case, sole proprietor or LLC owner income taxes ARE taxes on the company. There are no CEOs in these forms of business. There are owners. The owners and the business are one and the same in the eyes of the (tax) law.

It is the final consumer who always pays for all these forms of taxation. Again, prove me wrong with facts.

No problem. I'll talk about an industry that I'm familiar with. Fast casual franchising. During the height of our nation's economic worries in 2008-2009, Firehouse Subs (the parent company) decided that prices would not be raised. This being the case, franchise owners were not allowed to raise their prices in the face of rising costs. Instead, they were forced to accept reduced profits as the company gambled that increasing marketing expenses would build a stronger brand as the stores would compete on service and quality rather than price.

No increased costs were passed to the consumer. The franchise owners (and therfore the companies they owned) paid taxes whether you choose to believe it or not. Firehouse was not the only franchise to not raise prices, nor are they the only franchise that doesn't allow individual franchise owners to have discretion with regards to pricing. Seeing as there are countless thousands of franchise small business owners in this country, there are countless thousands of businesses that paid taxes.

I

'll repeat for everyone... government is not your friend. It only desires to enslave, be it economically or at worst, physically. Reject government interference in your lives, read the Founding documents and stop paying lip service to Liberty.

I'll repeat for just you. Government in and of itself does not have any desires whatsoever and can only be as good as the PEOPLE that design and operate the system.

 

[Nraman]

Private sector unions are about 10% of the workforce.
Regulations can be changed to make sure they don't abuse their power but unions cannot be eliminated, they have the right of assembly, free speech and the right to refuse to work. Since the PATCO strike, many companies simply replaced their workforces with non union.
Unless we want to be like Indonesia or Mexico (favorites of some US corporations) where the police or the Federales can break heads till the workers agree to go back to work, we will have unions. BTW, union workers are company employees and so is the CEO. How come nobody ever gets upset when the CEO makes billions? That's a helluva paycheck for any employee. Just recently the Exxon CEO retired with more than half a billion retirement. We only seem upset when union workers get retirement and health benefits which are standard in the public sector. From the President to the soldier, they all get retirement and health benefits even after retirement.
While the points made are good, I think that the bottom line is whether the corporations would return unless forced to by tariffs.

 

[mhphoto]

From Ron Paul's The Revolution: A Manifesto.

On free trade:

"Consider a single, almost trivial example of government favoritism: sugar quotas. The United States government limits the amount of sugar that can be imported from around the world. These quotas make it more expensive for all Americans since they now have fewer choices as a result of diminished competition. The quotas also put at a competitive disadvantage all those businesses that use sugar to produce their own products. That's one reason that American colas use corn syrup instead of sugar: American sugar, thanks to quotas, is simply too expensive."

- Page 72

 

[soonerwings]

Private sector unions are about 10% of the workforce.
Regulations can be changed to make sure they don't abuse their power but unions cannot be eliminated, they have the right of assembly, free speech and the right to refuse to work. Since the PATCO strike, many companies simply replaced their workforces with non union.
Unless we want to be like Indonesia or Mexico (favorites of some US corporations) where the police or the Federales can break heads till the workers agree to go back to work, we will have unions. BTW, union workers are company employees and so is the CEO. How come nobody ever gets upset when the CEO makes billions? That's a helluva paycheck for any employee. Just recently the Exxon CEO retired with more than half a billion retirement. We only seem upset when union workers get retirement and health benefits which are standard in the public sector. From the President to the soldier, they all get retirement and health benefits even after retirement.
While the points made are good, I think that the bottom line is whether the corporations would return unless forced to by tariffs.

Unions have their place, it just irks me when states don't give workers a choice. States that lose massive numbers of jobs due to forced unionization policy (Michigan comes to mind) deserve to lose the jobs to other states. When chevy and ford pay $2000 per car in healthcare benefits while toyota pays $200, these benefits which have been "bargained" for by unions only serve to harm the competitive ability of the american auto makers. When it comes to elected officials, I completely agree, why in the world they get retirement or health benefits for 4-6 years of service while sitting safely behind polished mahogany desks is beyond me.