Has any otherwise lawful Oklahoman ever been convicted of open carry since the SDA?

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TallPrairie

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The typical rule of statutory construction is that if newer laws conflict with older laws, the newer laws control.

True, but when the newer law expressly acknowledges that previous laws remain valid and in effect (which is what 1289.6.A.6's reference to other "legislative enactments" concerning firearms does), there would be no conflict, so that rule would not apply.

Also, 1272 contains this exception to the prohibition:

2. The carrying or use of weapons in a manner otherwise permitted by statute or authorized by the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act;

which would include 1289.6, which is the only way it is legal to open carry while hunting, target shooting, or any of those other activities listed in 1289.6, including "for any other legitimate purpose."

I agree that this is the knottiest part of the issue. 1289.6.A.2 flat out says that (e.g.) "target shooting" is a permissible purpose for open carrying, so open carry for that purpose doesn't violate 1272 either, since 1272.2 has an exception for "the carrying of weapons in a manner otherwise permitted by statute," and 1289.6.A.2 is a statute that says open carrying while target shooting is a permissible manner of carrying. Agreed.

But in contrast, 1289.6.A.6 doesn't say open carrying "for any legitimate purpose" is permitted. The provision doesn't end there. Instead it says, "for any legitimate purpose not in violation of ... any legislative enactment regarding the ownership, use, or control of firearms."

So where does that leave us? 1272 says in effect 'all handgun carry is illegal except for the specific exceptions given here [which don't include self-defense], and except for when another Oklahoma statute says carrying them is allowed.' So if 1289.6 simply said that open carrying for "any legitimate purpose" is allowed, full stop, then you would be right. That would mean another Oklahoma statute (1289.6) had affirmatively said you can open carry for self-defense (a legitimate purpose), so open carrying for self-defense would fall under the 1272.2 exception and would not be prohibited by 1272.

But that's not what 1289.6 says. It says you can carry for "any legitimate purpose not in violation of" other OK statutes on firearms. Well, 1272 bans open carry for self-defense unless another OK statute affirms that such carrying is legal. And 1289.6 hasn't really done that. 1272 directly bans all carrying unless an affirmative exception applies. The way 1289.6's "any legitimate purpose not in violation of" clause is worded indicates that it is not intended to modify the background prohibition of 1272.

Put more bluntly, 1272 says "no carrying a particular way unless some OK statute tells you it's allowed." The other parts of 1289.A (target shooting, hunting, etc.) do specifically state that open carrying for those enumerated purposes is allowed. So they are carved out of the prohibition in 1272. But 1289.6.A.6 says (in effect) "any legitimate purpose that doesn't violate 1272." That doesn't modify the prohibition in 1272. If the way you're carrying would have violated 1272 in the absence of 1289.6.A.6, then the existence of 1289.6.A.6 doesn't change that outcome.

Again, I agree that the law is a mess in this area. This is one reason to support HB2522, which would at least clear this up to an extent by expressly allowing loaded open carry for self-defense, without need of an SDA license, on one's own property.
 

TallPrairie

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I just thought of one more way to put it. It's as if 1272 says "open carry for self-defense is banned unless 1289.6 says it is allowed" and 1289.6 says "open carry for self-defense is allowed unless that is contrary to 1272." At the end of the day, has either statute actually authorized open carry? It doesn't look like it. They are each waiting on a "mother may I" from the other provision that never comes.
 
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malexander

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Welcome to the friendliest, most helpful gun forum on the internet!

Oh wait, I was thinking of somewhere else :laugh6:

That would be the Marlin Owners forums. They REALLY are the friendliest bunch. I've never been bashed or flamed for anything, They speak of nothing but positive. Even if you've screwed up. Ask me how I know!!!!!
 

waltham41

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flybeech

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Here is a link to the 21-1272 convictions that I am able to find. Unless I have missed something, please note that all the convictions of 1272 violations were a part of much more serious crimes and that nowhere can I find anyone who was convicted on a violation of 21-1272 as a stand-alone conviction of an otherwise lawful Oklahoman.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?citeid=69740
 

TerryMiller

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I'm not sure of what you were referring to in that link to OSCN, but it does not take into account all the cases where a conviction occurred in all 77 District Court jurisdictions, not to mention all the municipal courts as well. So, getting a comprehensive and complete list is going to be near to impossible. Also, even if a violation and conviction of 21-1272 is a part of a larger case, it is still a conviction.

There are a number of participants on the OSA forums who are attorneys. I would imagine that if your contention that open carry is currently legal were true, then some of those attorney's would have likely chimed in and agreed that open carry is legal. Then going beyond that, if open carry were already legal, why then is the legislature beating a dead horse by now trying to pass open carry?
 

SMS

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The total number of convictions for violations of 1272/open carry does not support your continued, almost pathological, contention that open carry is legal in Oklahoma.

Let's start a thread titled "Has any otherwise lawful Oklahoman bothered to attempt to open carry, since most of us understand that it is illegal in this state?"

Henschman has already stated that he would represent anyone who wants to be a test case....I say go for it, I'll even kick in some cash to bail you out.
 

flybeech

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There are a number of participants on the OSA forums who are attorneys. I would imagine that if your contention that open carry is currently legal were true, then some of those attorney's would have likely chimed in and agreed that open carry is legal. Then going beyond that, if open carry were already legal, why then is the legislature beating a dead horse by now trying to pass open carry?

At least one attorney has "chimed in" and I'm seriously considering an event sometime in April. I understand that I will not have the support of the majority of Oklahoma gun owners and as a lawyer told me, test cases are most often a lonely business. I can't answer why the legislature is doing what they are doing. We're all so brainwashed that rights are granted as privileges that I expect they just assume it's illegal the same way so many others do. It's illegal 'just because'.
 

flybeech

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The total number of convictions for violations of 1272/open carry does not support your continued, almost pathological, contention that open carry is legal in Oklahoma.

Let's start a thread titled "Has any otherwise lawful Oklahoman bothered to attempt to open carry, since most of us understand that it is illegal in this state?"

Henschman has already stated that he would represent anyone who wants to be a test case....I say go for it, I'll even kick in some cash to bail you out.

I appreciate your helpful comments and thoughtful suggestion for a thread idea. If I've learned anything at all, I've learned that gun control is well accepted, even protected and defended by many Americans, even here in the reddest State in the nation. I've also learned that Oklahomans are much more comfortable with the idea of begging our legislators to grant us a very restricted privilege for a right we may already have. If they pass very restrictive open carry, attached to a license, we'll all end up thanking them for granting us the 'privilege' to open carry.

I am very serious about exercising my right to defend myself openly in early April, should additional legal research continue to indicate my beliefs have merit. I understand that defending the Constitution can be a very risky and lonely business, both in the courts and in the court of popular opinion. I can't be sure I have the guts to try it, I've never had a bit of trouble with the police in my life and my record is squeaky-clean. I agree that a normal person would never consider such an act of perceived disobedience to the government, because submission to government is the new normal.

A project like this would cost money and I don't have much of that, so of course, I would welcome donations. I will face fines, loss of work court costs, possible jail time and a million other things I've never experienced in over a half-century of life. If anyone wants to form an independent legal defense fund, I would appreciate it, but expect nothing in the way of support.

If a man fears his government, he is not a free man, but a slave.
 

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