Has any otherwise lawful Oklahoman ever been convicted of open carry since the SDA?

[ZMWILL]

New to the forum here and looking for answers. I recently started looking into this HB2522 thinking what a great deal. Now I'm not so sure. I got the question why are we not allowed to carry. I have asked a friend who is a Logan County Sheriff and he confirmed we are not allowed to open carry legally. So I looked into it. What I found on OSCN I presented to him, which is the following and he now feels his initial response and the accepted public view is in error with state law. In addition he could not find any case in OSCN where aanyone had been tried foropen carry. While not a lawyer I've come to determination it may be legal to open carry here in Oklahoma as the present law reads. I have discussed it with many including online with legislator Tim Gillespie. While Gillespie feels it is not legal he and no one else I have questioned has been able to say go to this statute and line to find where. Those “in the know” who say it is illegal always point to Unlawful Carry 21-1272 but its limitations are subject to other statutes that say otherwise.

We are told it is illegal here in 21-1272.

§21-1272 UNLAWFUL CARRY
It shall be unlawful for any person to carry upon or about his or her
person, or in a purse or
other container belonging to the person, any pistol, revolver, shotgun
or rifle whether loaded or
unloaded or any dagger, bowie knife, dirk knife, switchblade knife,
spring-type knife, sword
cane, knife having a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure
applied to a button,
spring, or other device in the handle of the knife, blackjack, loaded
cane, billy,hand chain, metal
knuckles, or any other offensive weapon, whether such weapon be
concealed or unconcealed,
except this section shall NOT prohibit:
2. The carrying or use of weapons in a manner otherwise permitted by
statute or authorized by
the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act;

Illegal except where it “shall not Prohibit”. So with “this section shall not prohibit...” in mind we go to “statute” 1289.6 where it states

§21-1289.6 CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH FIREARMS MAY BE CARRIED
A. A person shall be permitted to carry loaded and unloaded shotguns,
rifles and pistols, open
and not concealed and without a handgun license as authorized by the
Oklahoma Self-Defense
Act, Sections 1 through 25 of this act, pursuant to the following
conditions:
(we skip to item #6) 6. For any legitimate purpose not in violation of the Oklahoma Firearms
Act of 1971, Sections 1289.1 through1289.17 of this title or any legislative enactment
regarding the use, ownership
and control of firearms.

Sections 1289.1 through1289.17 is all the common sense stuff ie..firearms and felons, children, drunken and so on. So I then questioned what “legitimate purpose” meant. I came up with two definition as per the Oklahoma legislature. So now we go just prior to 1289.6 to 1289.2 to find the first of what the legislature considers legitimate reasons.

§ 1289.2 LEGISLATIVE FINDINGS FOR FIREARMS ACT
The Legislature finds as a matter of public policy and fact that it is
necessary for the safe and
lawful use of firearms to curb and prevent crime wherein weapons are
used by enacting
legislation having the purpose of controlling the use of firearms, and
of prevention of their use
without unnecessarily denying their lawful use in defense of life, home
and property, and their
use by the United States or state military organizations and as may
otherwise be provided by
law, including their use and transportation for lawful purposes.

Here we found defense of self, home and property along with curbing crime as legitimate reasons for firearms. The second basis for this definition of legitimate purpose is that self defense was the driving premise in the concealed carry law.

As the law states above I feel open carry is already legal and the HB2522 seems to be a back door approach to gun control by moving it from a right given by God and affirmed by the state statues above to a privilege by requiring permission from the state and by the applying of fees to exercise the (to be under HB2522) a privilege not to mention your name is now on a government list. So the questions are

1-Can anyone list the actual statute(s) that say it is illeagal?
2-Has anyone considered a petition drive to have the courts, law enforcement, and legislature into acknowleging he law I mentioned above?

 

[SMS]

I appreciate your helpful comments and thoughtful suggestion for a thread idea. If I've learned anything at all, I've learned that gun control is well accepted, even protected and defended by many Americans, even here in the reddest State in the nation. I've also learned that Oklahomans are much more comfortable with the idea of begging our legislators to grant us a very restricted privilege for a right we may already have. If they pass very restrictive open carry, attached to a license, we'll all end up thanking them for granting us the 'privilege' to open carry.

I am very serious about exercising my right to defend myself openly in early April, should additional legal research continue to indicate my beliefs have merit. I understand that defending the Constitution can be a very risky and lonely business, both in the courts and in the court of popular opinion. I can't be sure I have the guts to try it, I've never had a bit of trouble with the police in my life and my record is squeaky-clean. I agree that a normal person would never consider such an act of perceived disobedience to the government, because submission to government is the new normal.

A project like this would cost money and I don't have much of that, so of course, I would welcome donations. I will face fines, loss of work court costs, possible jail time and a million other things I've never experienced in over a half-century of life. If anyone wants to form an independent legal defense fund, I would appreciate it, but expect nothing in the way of support.

If a man fears his government, he is not a free man, but a slave.

Like I said, back it up with deeds or you are just riding a high horse filled with hot air. The reason for our belief that open carry is illegal (but not neccesarily constitutional) has been pointed out in more than one thread now. Most of us believe it to be that way because we read and comprehend the law and high court precedence as such.

Keep us up to date with your progress and I'm sure some of us timid government lapdogs will manage to scrape some loot together to help the cause. Heck, maybe you'll be successful. I can say with sincere honesty that I do not pray for the outcome to be negative for you....good luck.

 

[David2012]

For the guy who has been posting on several different forums that he is contemplating 'open carrying' in a very public place in the next month or so in order to see if he gets arrested... and if arrested, will make this a test case on open carry legality..... I hope you and your attorney understand that if you already have a Concealed Carry permit and are arrested for a weapons charge, your permit may be suspended until the outcome of the case... and if you are convicted [depending upon the charge and whether or not it is a felony or misdemeanor] you could lose your permit eligibility from 3 years up to a lifetime ban. Is it worth the risk? I wouldn't risk that penalty. Nor would the majority of permit holders... that is why we pursue the political avenues.

By-the-way, I don't recall you ever telling us... do you have a concealed permit right now?

 

[hrdware]

When it comes down to it, all the OC cases that have happened since 1908. I'm going to paraphrase a lot here so bear with me. The courts ruled that the OK Constitution states the right of the people to keep and bear arms and arms should be considered when the constitution was written and did not include handguns. Therefore the 1272 that says you can't carry handguns holds and does not violate the constitution. Even the Pierce v State case references the Thompson case of 1908.

 

[daddyof3_101]

http://www.okshooters.com/showthread.php?134657-What-Oklahoma-law-forbids-open-carry

Been discussed. And quite similar in post construction as well...............

 

[flybeech]

For the guy who has been posting on several different forums that he is contemplating 'open carrying' in a very public place in the next month or so in order to see if he gets arrested... and if arrested, will make this a test case on open carry legality..... I hope you and your attorney understand that if you already have a Concealed Carry permit and are arrested for a weapons charge, your permit may be suspended until the outcome of the case... and if you are convicted [depending upon the charge and whether or not it is a felony or misdemeanor] you could lose your permit eligibility from 3 years up to a lifetime ban. Is it worth the risk? I wouldn't risk that penalty. Nor would the majority of permit holders... that is why we pursue the political avenues.

By-the-way, I don't recall you ever telling us... do you have a concealed permit right now?

Yes, I have a permit and here is the punishment for violating 1272.

Any person violating the provisions of Section 1272 or 1273 shall, upon a first conviction, be adjudged guilty of a misdemeanor and the party offending shall be punished by a fine of not less than One Hundred Dollars ($100.00) nor more than Two Hundred Fifty Dollars ($250.00), or by imprisonment in the county jail for a period not to exceed thirty (30) days or both such fine and imprisonment. On the second and every subsequent violation, the party offending shall, upon conviction, be punished by a fine of not less than Two Hundred Fifty Dollars ($250.00) nor more than Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), or by imprisonment in the county jail for a period not less than thirty (30) days nor more than three (3) months, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

Any person convicted of violating the provisions of Section 1272 or 1273 after having been issued a concealed handgun license pursuant to the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, Sections 1 through 25 of this act, shall have the license suspended for a period of six (6) months and shall be liable for an administrative fine of Fifty Dollars ($50.00) upon a hearing and determination by the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation that the person is in violation of the provisions of this section.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=69744

 

[SMS]

What's up flybeech....

 

[Glocktogo]

This is going to get annoying before it's over.

 

[SMS]

...it's already been annoying. LOL.

 

[okiebryan]

1-Can anyone list the actual statute(s) that say it is illeagal?
2-Has anyone considered a petition drive to have the courts, law enforcement, and legislature into acknowleging he law I mentioned above?

1) I'm no veterinarian, but I don't see what a sick bird has to do with open carry.

2) This is not how the legal system works. No court or law enforcement gives one whit about a petition. There are only 2 ways to get this clarified, if in fact you are right.
a) Get an opinion from the AG. However, the AG doesn't work for the citizens of the State of Oklahoma. He works for the State itself. You will only get an opinion if a legislator or someone in power of a State agency asks for one. This possibility has been discussed with legislators who believe you wouldn't like the answer under the current AG.
b) Get arrested and charged under 1272. Lose your carry permit, and whatever gun you are carrying - and become a test case. However, to make valid case law, you would have to be convicted in District Court, then be overturned on a reversible error at the Court of Appeals.

I am not a lawyer, but this is how I understand it. Someone chime in if I am wrong.