HD Shotgun Thoughts

[aviator41]

Shotguns are no more "point and shoot" thank ANY other weapon. Inside an out 5 yards, the shot will most likely be in a 2-3 inch circle. Shotguns don't spread like the movies, and there is no reason to advocate firing them differently than a carbine.

Loading the firearm with multiple types of ammunition is also dangerous. By doing that, you are trying to script your gunfight. If it isn't "time to get serious" when you pull the trigger the first time, you have no business shooting someone. #6 shot won't even penetrate my shooting glasses, let alone bone and large blood/air filled organs. The goal is rapid incapacitation. That is done by adequate penetration and proper placement. BIRDSHOT just doesn't reliably penetrate to an adequate depth.

A carbine does not have a 2-3" circle of potential impact. at best, a carbine shooting a 45 caliber projectile has a .452 inch circle of impact that must contact the assailant. that's less than half an inch, but lets round. Lets say that round magically expands to .5 inches. That give you roughly a 16% chance of the hitting the assailant vs. shotgun at 15 meters (which is actually 5" diameter, not 2-3"). a 223 round has a circle of impact of .224, or about half that of a 45. now you're down to roughly 8%

at 15 meters 00 buckshot typically has a shot pattern of roughly 5X5 with a cylinder choke. That circle expands with bird shot at the same range. but I used your 2"-3" circle for comparison.

So why advocate shooting a shotgun different than a carbine? because you DO shot a shotgun differently that a carbine ( or other rifle for that matter). you AIM a carbine/rifle/bb gun/pistol, you POINT a shotgun. It's probably why a shotgun has different sighting systems that a rifle. . . strange how that works. And yes, I know there are rifled shotguns/projectiles - we're not talking about those, we're talking about SHOT

So do you want to try to hit that guy coming in the window with a projectile roughly as wide as a pencil, or a projectile CLOUD roughly the size of a book. . . you can keep your carbine.

 

[dennishoddy]

I don't have one, but it would be interesting to see the pattern at 5 yds coming out of a rifled choke and a 12 ga.
My Taurus Judge has 1" of rifling which makes for a 12" pattern at 5 yds with a 3", .410 round

 

[Okie4570]

Patterns are tighter than people think at close range. Even when trying to pattern a .410 a few years ago before a turkey hunt, I was amazed at how small the pattern was at 12y, and how much penetration even the wad still had that distance. We've throw golf balls up in the air, and even with skeet and I/C choke tubes, it vaporizes them at 10' above you.

 

[somarsmi]

Stick with a pump gun it's only my opinion. An AR is a good choice also but I only keep a weapon (Glock 22/870) that I wont be too upset if someone breaks in the house and steals. Every time ammo gets scarce I still have the ability to afford to train with my shotgun. I am going to be honest I don't have as many hours training with a AR/M16 Platform as I do my shotgun... so your decision may differ.

 

[HoLeChit]

A carbine does not have a 2-3" circle of potential impact. at best, a carbine shooting a 45 caliber projectile has a .452 inch circle of impact that must contact the assailant. that's less than half an inch, but lets round. Lets say that round magically expands to .5 inches. That give you roughly a 16% chance of the hitting the assailant vs. shotgun at 15 meters (which is actually 5" diameter, not 2-3"). a 223 round has a circle of impact of .224, or about half that of a 45. now you're down to roughly 8%

at 15 meters 00 buckshot typically has a shot pattern of roughly 5X5 with a cylinder choke. That circle expands with bird shot at the same range. but I used your 2"-3" circle for comparison.

So why advocate shooting a shotgun different than a carbine? because you DO shot a shotgun differently that a carbine ( or other rifle for that matter). you AIM a carbine/rifle/bb gun/pistol, you POINT a shotgun. It's probably why a shotgun has different sighting systems that a rifle. . . strange how that works. And yes, I know there are rifled shotguns/projectiles - we're not talking about those, we're talking about SHOT

So do you want to try to hit that guy coming in the window with a projectile roughly as wide as a pencil, or a projectile CLOUD roughly the size of a book. . . you can keep your carbine.

I like this thought process. I feel that if you can't fend of one or even 3 guys coming into YOUR house with 5-8 shots of buckshot, then you aren't gonna do much better with 30 rounds of rifle ammo, assuming you get all 30 off before they get to you.

And I'm also a believer in taking as many variable out of the equation as possible when it comes to self/home defense. With a pump gun, even the most seasoned of shooters can fudge things up and short stroke it. The racking of a shotgun isn't going to deter a determined or focused individual. I just had this conversation with my girlfriend about getting a shotgun for HD. The best shot we have at preparing for a bad situation (in the red, or worse- the black) is muscle memory. Train like you fight, and train until you can't train anymore. But even then, it can fail you, hence the removal of variables.
I say if you can afford it, go with the best you can do. IE a semi auto HD shotgun. Nothing wrong with having a pump gun for HD, hell, it's what I have at the moment. But in the unlikely chance that you'll have to use it, you will be glad you trained, and hopefully, not having to think about how you short stroked it.

And one thing I feel is oftentimes left out when it comes to HD is weapons retention. That 26" OAL shotgun is remarkably easy to get a hold of, rendering it pretty close to useless if you can't counter that. Something to think about when training.

 

[SMS]

So why advocate shooting a shotgun different than a carbine? because you DO shot a shotgun differently that a carbine ( or other rifle for that matter). you AIM a carbine/rifle/bb gun/pistol, you POINT a shotgun. It's probably why a shotgun has different sighting systems that a rifle. . . strange how that works. And yes, I know there are rifled shotguns/projectiles - we're not talking about those, we're talking about SHOT

For hunting birds on the wing, maybe. For targeting humans in a lethal encounter…utter internet rubbish.

Shotguns, used for defensive purposes need to be aimed just like rifles and handguns and you can miss…

Go pattern your gun, using a proper defensive load (not birdshot) at common household distances, and you'll be surprised.

Look at the results at 10 feet: http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-20-buckshot-patterns/

 

[HoLeChit]

Look at the results at 10 feet: http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-20-buckshot-patterns/

Well, found my activity for the evening. I like the articles this guy writes.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

Priceless!

 

[Norman]

A carbine does not have a 2-3" circle of potential impact. at best, a carbine shooting a 45 caliber projectile has a .452 inch circle of impact that must contact the assailant. that's less than half an inch, but lets round. Lets say that round magically expands to .5 inches. That give you roughly a 16% chance of the hitting the assailant vs. shotgun at 15 meters (which is actually 5" diameter, not 2-3"). a 223 round has a circle of impact of .224, or about half that of a 45. now you're down to roughly 8%

at 15 meters 00 buckshot typically has a shot pattern of roughly 5X5 with a cylinder choke. That circle expands with bird shot at the same range. but I used your 2"-3" circle for comparison.

So why advocate shooting a shotgun different than a carbine? because you DO shot a shotgun differently that a carbine ( or other rifle for that matter). you AIM a carbine/rifle/bb gun/pistol, you POINT a shotgun. It's probably why a shotgun has different sighting systems that a rifle. . . strange how that works. And yes, I know there are rifled shotguns/projectiles - we're not talking about those, we're talking about SHOT

So do you want to try to hit that guy coming in the window with a projectile roughly as wide as a pencil, or a projectile CLOUD roughly the size of a book. . . you can keep your carbine.

As usual, SMS is spot on. It's internet garbage that defensive shotguns are "point and shoot" weapons. The mathematical breakdown is terribly flawed logic. Anyone who attempts to compensate for poor marksmanship and weapons handling with a larger caliber weapon is doomed for bad results.

Back to the original topic. Aim a shotgun like a rifle, use DEFENSIVE loads, not ammo for little hollow boned birds. Pumps are fine for defensive guns, with training. Short stroking a pump is a non issue if you learn to run the gun appropriately and practice. If you plan on trusting your life to a gun, get professional training and learn to use them.

 

[dennishoddy]

Pumps are fine for defensive guns, with training. Short stroking a pump is a non issue if you learn to run the gun appropriately and practice. If you plan on trusting your life to a gun, get professional training and learn to use them.

I guess everybody misses my point about why a pump gun should not be used in HD.
If your in an exchange of gunfire with a home invader, and you take a round to either arm, your pump gun becomes a single shot. You can stay in the fight with a self loader, shooting one handed.

Short stroking is certainly an issue. Its one that can be eliminated though with the correct weapon for the job at hand.

99.8% of home owners ARE NOT going to get professional training, and fire at most a couple hundreds of rounds a year at a range.

 

[justin_h635]

Yep!

Shoot buckshot or other load through Sheetrock then ask yourself if family in other rooms will be safe.