High end AR’s, diminishing returns, and reliability.

[Camo]

The CEO of Larue posts pictures of the groups shot with his rifles at times on IG, the groupings are stellar. I think the current upper they sell had groups between .2 and .5, though it’s been a while since I saw the post.

In all cases, unless you know who's doing the machining for all these companies that do all their own machining.

Not all do all their own machining but most do.

I stand behind my statement, I see no better results from top tier guns than cheaper ar15s with the exception of bear creek, they don’t seem to have a clue.

 

[KurtM]

Actually, I already knew who made it. The friend I alluded to was sponsored by Mark and I have met him many times. I was just using it as an example of a place that used already machined parts, and the big old N is made by Jarmo's Company up in Minnesota. The point being that there are several of these "top tier" companies that really don't make/ forge/ machine their own parts. Unless there have been huge changes in Texas, I doubted that there is a "dead center" forge. This in no way should be taken as running old Mark down in the least, they have always made/ assembled a very nice AR!

 

[JD8]

Alright, I think I've figured out a game plan. Is there a solid resource that I can use as a reference to qc my purchase myself? For example, I want torque specs, dimensional specs, the whole nine yards. I don't want some blog post or random forum post found on arf or something, an actual manual or experience would really be ideal. I want to go into this as if I'm a guy who has never touched an AR.

Not sure how many times I have to say this lol......

Check out the School of the American Rifle channel on youtube.

 

[JD8]

Actually, I already knew who made it. The friend I alluded to was sponsored by Mark and I have met him many times. I was just using it as an example of a place that used already machined parts, and the big old N is made by Jarmo's Company up in Minnesota. The point being that there are several of these "top tier" companies that really don't make/ forge/ machine their own parts. Unless there have been huge changes in Texas, I doubted that there is a "dead center" forge. This in no way should be taken as running old Mark down in the least, they have always made/ assembled a very nice AR!

Example of an examination of a lower....

 

[JD8]

 

[JD8]

 

[HoLeChit]

Not sure how many times I have to say this lol......

Check out the School of the American Rifle channel on youtube.

I'm subscribed and occasionally watch some of his stuff. But I have yet to see any sort of instructional videos on assembly, best practices, and the like.

 

[JD8]

I'm subscribed and occasionally watch some of his stuff. But I have yet to see any sort of instructional videos on assembly, best practices, and the like.

You said....

For example, I want torque specs, dimensional specs, the whole nine yards.



There's plenty of instructional vids out there, but when it comes to spec'ing one out, troubleshooting, and problem solving there is no better source that I've found online.


FWIW, If you want to switch out parts, PSA is running a sale on their uppers and lowers. $330 for a complete rifle......or...... if you want to build a lower...... their parts kits are cheap too. It would be a good starting point to learn. I'm all for buy once cry once, but if you're building yourself, I practiced on cheaper kits first, but that's just me.

 

[HoLeChit]

So, question: If we're buying once, crying once with the purpose of a dead reliable, solid rifle, would you get an adjustable gas block, or a nonadjustable? Pin or no pin?

I was looking at the Triarc Easy Pin gas block, which should allow me to DIY it easily. I was originally planning on a Superlative Arms bleed off adjustable, but its clamp on, adding cost of pinning to an already expensive block.

 

[JEVapa]

Actually, I already knew who made it. The friend I alluded to was sponsored by Mark and I have met him many times. I was just using it as an example of a place that used already machined parts, and the big old N is made by Jarmo's Company up in Minnesota. The point being that there are several of these "top tier" companies that really don't make/ forge/ machine their own parts. Unless there have been huge changes in Texas, I doubted that there is a "dead center" forge. This in no way should be taken as running old Mark down in the least, they have always made/ assembled a very nice AR!

But I do have an answer, and it was at least more than a decade ago when he was building OBRs...which don't exist anymore.

Correct, no TX forges that I know of. Now, the only thing he doesn't make are the small parts...he even started making his own AR15 BCG's because of backburner waits for competitors. Not even carrying forged uppers any longer, it's all in-house machined...barrels too. He had to replace his CMs with his own manufacturing and has replaced most OEMs. That also increases prices too once everything starts getting vertically integrated but he can control almost 100% of quality and everything else.

Kinda in the same way, PSA has bought their CMs so now there's almost no wait time for Nodak spud and parts kits, and now they have "high end" parts, etc. They're more of a conglomerate though but not like "freedom arms".

I see no better results from top tier guns than cheaper ar15s

If you know how CMs work, they make stuff based on the customers specs, so like items will be significantly different in quality, finish, and performance from customer to customer. OEMs, not so much, they make the same thing for everybody. So saying that everybody's stuff is the same, isn't correct, at all. That's like saying school TP is the same as Charmin.

If six different companies have the same spec and use the same CM, then there's definitely some truth to that.

But, if three companies have the same spec and use the same CM (6061 coz it's cheap), and two companies pay for and have a better spec/set of requirements (7075 and hardcoat ano) and the same CM, and one company makes 80% in-house and uses high end components from CMs or OEMs, there will be a noticeable difference among the six companies.

But like I said before, most people will never see it because they either don't know or will never run their guns to their limits.

"High end" is relative. Just because it costs a lot, doesn't mean it's high end, it just means it costs a lot. High-ish end doesn't mean spendy either.
However, real high-end guns will outshoot most junk and cheap out there including a bunch of the "high end" posited here. Real high-end guns do tend to cost more, it is what it is, and have always been and always will be worth the money.

Most people will never see the difference because they don't work it to the point that "high-end" matters. High-end gets poopooed and cheap is good enough, because most people will never go beyond what cheap provides. A few rounds at the range occasionally and staged photos of never-ending improvements on OSA.

Most people shoot at 25ish yards and see that everything bunches up the same and call it good and think it's the same. Same at 100yds/meters with cheap ammo and that is their determining factor. If you buy 10 M4s from 10 different companies that follow the TDP and Gov spec, you are guaranteed 2-4 MOA guns. If your determining prerequisite for high-end/good enough is some kind of accuracy litmus, then you're missing the picture of what make a good gun good, and a cheap gun meh.

I guarantee @KurtM 's JP costs much more than a PSA and is worth every penny, not just for accuracy, but however many thousands and thousands of rounds on it (I'm conservatively guessing 50k+ at least, not counting barrel and BCG changes/maintenance). Just like my LT is worth every penny. Just like the Colt URGs I have that have 10k+ rounds on them and they still go like the energizer bunny.

But it is what it is and I know that your cheapAF PSA will not shoot better than my LTs or probably my WCs, and definitely won't shoot better than my MK12, unless you change barrels and stuff. Then it won't be cheap anymore.