Oklahoma Teacher Carry - Looks like a good start...

[tulsamal]

I'm not against the idea. I'm a US Army vet and also have my OK teaching certificate. I was also an OK Security Guard at one time. As a long time serious shooter, I certainly have the skill and experience for it. And I doubt I'm the only one. I'm not sure I'm happy with all the requirements... the only people who will want to take on concealed carry in the schools are people a lot like me. People that are already well versed in firearms and already carry when away from the school. So it does seem like a lot of bureaucracy.

My biggest gripe is I just don't think this goes far enough. Think of the mega-thousands of combat vets we have the US now due to our involvement in the Middle East. A lot of those vets are parents now with kids in school. And a whole lot of them have their CCW's and carry every day. I'm in and out of my children's school once or twice a week. I see lots of other parents in there as well. I don't think parents should be "protecting the school" anymore than the armed teachers would. But they lend a lot of unpredictability to the plans of a mass shooter. He can't guarantee even a few minutes of uncontested rampage. He might run into somebody with a gun within a minute of entering the building. Which just _might_ encourage future mass shooters to go someplace else. Someplace besides our schools.

I was at the local middle school just yesterday. Had to park across the street and then sit there pulling my belt back and forth to remove my HK P2000 .357 SIG. Then put in on the floorboard under the seat. Then get out and lock the door. Then cross the street to "school property" and proceed inside. HOW are the children safer if I leave my loaded gun in a locked car across the street compared to just carrying the darn thing into the school? And how stupidly ironic would it be if I was inside _without my gun_ and a mass shooter actually showed up? And I ended up throwing a desk at him or something rather than putting a couple .357 Gold Dots into his chest?? If I was going to shoot some kids while I'm there... wouldn't I just bring my gun in with me rather than leaving it in the car?

IMO.... we need to get schools taken off the restricted list for CCW holders. Pronto. Not someday, not after whatever. (Don't even get me started about how stupid it is to have to disarm to go into the Post Office to mail a package!!!) We need to be lowering the restricted areas to the absolute minimum. I can understand a Courtroom. But not the entire building. If I go into the main county building to pay my taxes, why do I have to disarm and park across the street? If I'm pissed about my taxes and want to shoot somebody in the County Clerk's office, why wouldn't I just ignore the signs and walk right in with my gun?

I'm still mad that my local bank put up No Guns Allowed signs after the open carry stuff passed.... just haven't found a semi-local bank that doesn't have the signs up! Just follow the law and don't make me feel like a leper or something else unsavory!

Gregg

 

[Arin Morris]

...we need to get schools taken off the restricted list for CCW holders. Pronto. Not someday, not after whatever. (Don't even get me started about how stupid it is to have to disarm to go into the Post Office to mail a package!!!) We need to be lowering the restricted areas to the absolute minimum.

This.

 

[hrdware]

No mention of how this would affect those of us that teach at the college level...

This is already covered in statute.

D. No person in possession of a valid handgun license issued pursuant to the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act shall be authorized to carry the handgun into or upon any college, university, or technology center school property, except as provided in this subsection. For purposes of this subsection, the following property shall not be construed as prohibited for persons having a valid handgun license:
1. Any property set aside for the use or parking of any vehicle, whether attended or unattended, provided the handgun is carried or stored as required by law and the handgun is not removed from the vehicle without the prior consent of the college or university president or technology center school administrator while the vehicle is on any college, university, or technology center school property;
2. Any property authorized for possession or use of handguns by college, university, or technology center school policy; and
3. Any property authorized by the written consent of the college or university president or technology center school administrator, provided the written consent is carried with the handgun and the valid handgun license while on college, university, or technology center school property.

The college would have to adopt a policy to allow carry, or you would have to have written permission from the university president.

 

[Glocktogo]

Let me clarify why I feel the need for additional training, beyond the legal liability enhancements.

This is one area where the LCD factor will work against us all. I'd love to have any SDA permit holder with a business purpose on school grounds to carry their gun. Yet the first neagative incident by the SDA permit version of the lowest common denominator is going to ruin it for everyone.

If you only wanted to protect yourself and know not to fire until you have a clear field of fire and a high hit probability on the threat, great. But some darned goober is going to wind up letting a kid get their hands on their gun, or worse. It's not fair to the rest of us, but it's exactly what will happen.

 

[CoachR64]

Gtg, I understand. I just feel that is the same argument against assault weapons. One goober shoots up a school, and they want to pull rights from all of us. I see a school as not really different from other densely populated venues like a mall or a movie theater. We can not let the actions of a few idiots trample the rights of the rest of us.

 

[Lenonthelake]

You would be surprised with the number of teachers who are SDA qualified. The same with administrators. I did not have a handgun until this last summer and I had no training at all on handguns. I purchased one because of break-ins in the middle of the night with the residents at home in my neighborhood. The house across the street and one at the end of the block. I figured I could hit a burglar from 5 or 6 feet in the dark in my house where i know where everything is. My son purchased a gun right after Christmas this year and talked me into going out and shooting with him, i was really prepared. No ear protection, my ears are still ringing, I could not hit the broad side of a barn from 20 yards. I signed up for the SDA class along with my son, bought a better gun for the class and listened to everything the instructor told us. I am worried about having to make the decision to shoot or not shoot, but I know if i have to pull the trigger I will hit what I am aiming at. I would practice more and get better prepared for the possibility but ammunition is almost nonexistent in my area and what little I can find is very expensive. I have been reading and watching training video's on U-tube and following the different forums, I still don't know about shooting someone, but I think if my life (or family) depended on it I would and could. My SDA application is in the pipeline, I don't know if i will EDC or not. Don't see that many events where it would be necessary where I live, rural Oklahoma, but I know I will when going to Tulsa or OKC. I hate being on the street after dark in both towns, the area's that used to be safe just are not anymore. If they wanted me to carry at school I would but we have armed security now so it wont happen. We are a fairly small school (400 students and we have two armed security guards and the main station is less than 1/2 mile from the school with many more available at a moments notice. Thats not counting state, county, and city LE. I think that teachers should be allowed to carry if they want and I am pretty sure that they would be responsible and safe. I know that I would be happy if my kids were protected by their teachers and if the bad guys even thought they might run into opposition they would probably think twice, but most of the shooters are crazy so who knows.

 

[tweetr]

I'd love to have any SDA permit holder with a business purpose on school grounds to carry their gun. Yet the first neagative incident by the SDA permit version of the lowest common denominator is going to ruin it for everyone.

If you only wanted to protect yourself and know not to fire until you have a clear field of fire and a high hit probability on the threat, great. But some darned goober is going to wind up letting a kid get their hands on their gun, or worse.

This convinces me I did not overreact to your similar post in the other school thread. You sure do place a bunch of restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms! Why do you require, for instance, that an armed citizen have (a) a carry permit, and (b) a business purpose on school grounds to carry in what is obviously a public place?

I would like to hear you reconcile this with the Second Amendment, not to mention the natural rights foundation of the Second Amendment.

 

[Glocktogo]

This convinces me I did not overreact to your similar post in the other school thread. You sure do place a bunch of restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms! Why do you require, for instance, that an armed citizen have (a) a carry permit, and (b) a business purpose on school grounds to carry in what is obviously a public place?

I would like to hear you reconcile this with the Second Amendment, not to mention the natural rights foundation of the Second Amendment.

Seriously? SERIOUSLY? If you have no reason to be at a school, it really doesn't matter whether you have a gun or not. You don't need to be there! If you have a kid in the school, that's a business purpose. If you have an appointment with someone, are there to fix something, work there, regulate the school, etc., all those mean you have business there!

We're trying to reverse almost 20 YEARS worth of encroachment on our rights at schools. You're not going to get it all back in one fell swoop. Even here in Oklahoma, we have some serious pushback against this. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you except, good luck!

 

[tweetr]

Seriously? SERIOUSLY?

Yes, seriously. Well, mostly seriously.

Seriously, though, you seem to be buying the premise that the presence of children is a special case that obviates normal human freedom and Constitutional protections. Why should I not freely enter a property for which I paid? A public park, a public office building, a public school; what is the difference? (I agree that a private school may set conditions for entering its property, but not a public school, which is bound by all provisions of the Constitution.) When I enter such a public place as a free citizen, why should I not be armed? You have yet to explain how restrictions against same satisfy the Second Amendment (to say nothing of the Ninth.)

 

[Glocktogo]

Yes, seriously. Well, mostly seriously.

Seriously, though, you seem to be buying the premise that the presence of children is a special case that obviates normal human freedom and Constitutional protections. Why should I not freely enter a property for which I paid? A public park, a public office building, a public school; what is the difference? (I agree that a private school may set conditions for entering its property, but not a public school, which is bound by all provisions of the Constitution.) When I enter such a public place as a free citizen, why should I not be armed? You have yet to explain how restrictions against same satisfy the Second Amendment (to say nothing of the Ninth.)

The presence of children isn't the issue. The purpose of a school is. Restricting access to other people's children for which you've accepted responsibility isn't a constitutional issue. Simply put, an unconnected adult accessing a public school "just because I can" is ridiculous. You've said yourself that if it's such a dangerous place, your kids won't be there. Yet here you are, saying that schools should open the doors and allow anyone access within, which means unrestricted access to other people's children.

Guns or not, good luck with that.