P22 (or other) for CCW

[Armedmomma]

Scenario: I'm leaning into the back seat of my car buckling my baby into the carseat. A thug, probably high, grabs me from behind and pulls me away from the car...armed or not his intentions aren't good. Hurt me? My child? Drive off with my child? Maybe he's not alone, Do I really want to count on a .22 to end this situation quickly?

What if he's got a gun as well? How does my .22 match up to his. Doubtful he will turn and run. He's still bigger, stronger, and armed.

For me, it's just not the right decision.

 

[inactive]

Scenario: I'm leaning into the back seat of my car buckling my baby into the carseat. A thug, probably high, grabs me from behind and pulls me away from the car...armed or not his intentions aren't good. Hurt me? My child? Drive off with my child? Maybe he's not alone, Do I really want to count on a .22 to end this situation quickly?

What if he's got a gun as well? How does my .22 match up to his. Doubtful he will turn and run. He's still bigger, stronger, and armed.

For me, it's just not the right decision.

You're right, for you it's not your choice of firearm. But my wife (for example) does not carry. If she would carry even just a P22, I would feel much better for her. But yes, I obviously would prefer the PK380 over a P22. But I prefer the .22 to being unarmed. According to one of our most reverent and qualified pro-gun scholars, brandishing alone has a 98% effectiveness in quelling an attack.

If you are trying to convince me a .22 is a poor choice for carry, you are wasting your time. I understand this. I agree with you. No need to waste breathe trying to persuade me. But again, if that is all someone will carry... then at least they are armed.

 

[MoBoost]

Placement, placement, placement. A slightly bigger hole in the wall means absolutely nothing to the bad guy.

I'd rather have a rimfire revolver VS 380/32/25 semi - there was an article in Rifleman a few months back on how bad the failures are on those.

Yes, I have carried P22. Yes, I do own 22Mag revolver (for my wife).

No doubt - bigger is better, but saying that a stick/knife/stone is better than "a" gun is plain silly.

Oh I have no doubt that someone will eventually die from a 22lr/mag shot, but defending yourself isn't about killing. Defending yourself is all about stopping the threat as soon as possible. A 22 under most circumstances will not quickly and cleanly stop a full grown man.

(not a personal attack) No handgun round will. LET IT SINK!!! NONE!
Compared to a average deer rifle ALL handgun rounds are in the same laughable bracket of fraction of desired energy. Of course, if you read the interwebs, 45ACP loaded in 1911 miraculously doubles in length and becomes 45-70 Gov. ... but that's a whole different story.

 

[Soulman]

Placement, placement, placement. A slightly bigger hole in the wall means absolutely nothing to the bad guy.

Just because you're carrying a larger caliber doesn't mean you're going to miss as long as you practice. If you don't practice, you can miss just as easily with a 22 as you can a 45. Also, A 9mm is very easy to control in most any platform it is offered. The 9mm aslo does a lot more damage, and that means you have a wider margin for error. You've got to be a very good marksmans to be able to bring down a man size target with a 22 without them overtaking you and beating you to death.

No doubt - bigger is better, but saying that a stick/knife/stone is better than "a" gun is plain silly.

Ok and if the 22 doesn't fire (jams, bad box of ammo, etc)? Would you rather have it or a big rock or stick?

I'd rather have a rimfire revolver VS 380/32/25 semi - there was an article in Rifleman a few months back on how bad the failures are on those.

Those guns weren't broken in. Any guy on here with one of the pocket pistols will tell you to shoot at least 500 rounds to make sure it is broken in and reliable. Once they are broken in properly, they are reliable.

not a personal attack) No handgun round will. LET IT SINK!!! NONE!
Compared to a average deer rifle ALL handgun rounds are in the same laughable bracket of fraction of desired energy. Of course, if you read the interwebs, 45ACP loaded in 1911 miraculously doubles in length and becomes 45-70 Gov. ... but that's a whole different story.

Hmmm, so you're saying .45acp doesn't leave a bigger hole, causing them to bleed out faster? You sir are wrong. Have you ever seen a gel test that shows the wound channel the larger calibers make? The more blood that you get on the ground in the fastest time possible, the better. The more damage the bullet does to the internals the better. However, I'm not saying everyone should carry a S&W 500. Carry the largest caliber that you can safely and reliably handle.

 

[MoBoost]

You've got to be a very good marksmans to be able to bring down a man size target with a 22 without them overtaking you and beating you to death.

How is it any different than centerfire handgun?

Ok and if the 22 doesn't fire (jams, bad box of ammo, etc)? Would you rather have it or a big rock or stick?

How is it any different than centerfire handgun?

You don't have to be a genius to see that a bigger bullet at the same speed will do more damage - this is not what this thread is about. I just wanted to make a point: rimfire is very deadly, and centerfire handgun don't guarantee you nothing. Yes, there is slightly more room for error with bigger/faster rounds - but as I said before, in a big picture it's all in a small fraction of what it should be for a clean stop.

 

[Soulman]

You don't have to be a genius to see that a bigger bullet at the same speed will do more damage - this is not what this thread is about. I just wanted to make a point: rimfire is very deadly, and centerfire handgun don't guarantee you nothing. Yes, there is slightly more room for error with bigger/faster rounds - but as I said before, in a big picture it's all in a small fraction of what it should be for a clean stop.

So you think there's only a small fraction of a difference between a 22 rimfire and a 45 centerfire on performance and reliability? Right.......

Guess all of us are just wasting money on larger caliber, higher quality hollow points. We could just go with cheap, small caliber ball ammo. Only a small fraction of difference anyhow. Since we can't carry deer rifles with us, there's no way a larger caliber is going to put someone down faster anyhow. Heck, since it's all about shot placement you only need a single shot.

 

[dcoop46]

Not unless I'm being attacked by a turtle. .380 w/pda or larger.

 

[Norman]

Placement, placement, placement. A slightly bigger hole in the wall means absolutely nothing to the bad guy.

I'd rather have a rimfire revolver VS 380/32/25 semi - there was an article in Rifleman a few months back on how bad the failures are on those.

Yes, I have carried P22. Yes, I do own 22Mag revolver (for my wife).

No doubt - bigger is better, but saying that a stick/knife/stone is better than "a" gun is plain silly.

Actually, within the average engagement distance, saying a knife is better than a .22 is FAR from silly if you truely understand edged weapons. I'm not very good with a knife, but I'm fairly sure I could close the distance and hit some switches/timers before you could incapacitate me with a p22. Sure, there is a decent chance that I would die, but I would probably be taking you with me. You touched on the energy of pistol rounds in a later post, so I'm sure you are aquainted with the energy of a .357,9mm, .40, .45. The odds of you being able to stop the threat are vastly improved with a true defensive caliber. Shot placement is a large portion of the fight, but the round has to disrupt enough tissue to be effective.

 

[MoBoost]

So you think there's only a small fraction of a difference between a 22 rimfire and a 45 centerfire on performance and reliability? Right.......

Yes I do.
From my experience, modern rimfire is very reliable. I just went through two bricks of Federal bulk in a week with one or two FTF. Realistically, how many people go through $500-$1000 worth of self-defence ammo even to make a statistical comparison possible? Anyhow, if you think centerfire is 100% reliable - just go to a range and look on the floor: there are plenty of duds there; bad guns? bad reloads? milsurp ammo? - I dunno, but it's there.

Guess all of us are just wasting money on larger caliber, higher quality hollow points. We could just go with cheap, small caliber ball ammo. Only a small fraction of difference anyhow.

When my life is on the line I will take any fraction in my favor.

Actually, within the average engagement distance, saying a knife is better than a .22 is FAR from silly if you truely understand edged weapons.

I'll take a hammer over a knife every time, and I'll take a gun over a hammer ...
All things being equal: if you can draw a knife - you can draw a gun. Once the weapon is out, there is an obvious range and damage "edge" with a gun.

I'm not very good with a knife, but I'm fairly sure I could close the distance and hit some switches/timers before you could incapacitate me with a p22.

How is "closing distance" a self defense?
I do practice Mozambique drill - I firmly believe that a brain shot is the ONLY sure way to stop a human attacker. On the other hand, we have played with "charging attacker" simulation - and I can't even fire a single shot from "holstered" withing 15 yards, and 3 shots within 20 yards: from that I learned - if there is an armed attacker THAT close and charging, I will have to run away or charge forward and hope I brought that hammer ... just kidding, drawing while grappling is mofo for sure.

The odds of you being able to stop the threat are vastly improved with a true defensive caliber

From my studies and hunting experience (bow, muzzle loader, "big" and "small" caliber rifles and handguns) I have not seen the "vast improvement" unless we are talking about shouldered weapons. But I'm ready to learn!

Again, I'm 100% agreeing that bigger is better - I just hate to see 22LR neglected

Good read:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

 

[Norman]

I'll take a hammer over a knife every time, and I'll take a gun over a hammer ...
All things being equal: if you can draw a knife - you can draw a gun. Once the weapon is out, there is an obvious range and damage "edge" with a gun.

Hammer, Knife, its all personal preference i guess. I have seen what knives can do, and I've seen the photos of what a hammer will do. I personally prefer knives. Plus they are easier to carry IMHO at contact/clench distance a firearm does not hold a damage edge (assuming that the person with the knife knows how to use it). Outside of that distance, a firearm obviously has an advantage.

How is "closing distance" a self defense?
I do practice Mozambique drill - I firmly believe that a brain shot is the ONLY sure way to stop a human attacker. On the other hand, we have played with "charging attacker" simulation - and I can't even fire a single shot from "holstered" withing 15 yards, and 3 shots within 20 yards: from that I learned - if there is an armed attacker THAT close and charging, I will have to run away or charge forward and hope I brought that hammer ...

IMHO there is a time and place to close the distance in self defense, the trick is knowing when that time is. Good on you for what sounds like realistic training.

From my studies and hunting experience (bow, muzzle loader, "big" and "small" caliber rifles and handguns) I have not seen the "vast improvement" unless we are talking about shouldered weapons. But I'm ready to learn!

Vast imporvement is rather subjective. The fact is that (most) all handgun rounds are anemic. However, the more common self defense rounds have improved ballistics compared to the .22lr. I really dont consider it a primary weapon round. Ive seen the results of headshots with .22s and .25s that the skull was not penetrated, or the bullet did not have enough energy to disrupt/destroy tissue to cause incapacitation if it did. Those instances are anecdotal, and can be counted on one hand though. You are a hunter, so you are aware that in Oklahoma you cannot deer hunt legaly with a .22lr, however you can with some of the serious self defense rounds. The link that you provided was an oldy but a goody. Ive read it before a couple times, and always agreed with the comment on page 6 that says using a .22lr and training for only headshots is impractical with the realities of shooting. It is personal preference in the end i guess.