Places that are off limits for CCW?

[ArGyLe64]

http://oklahomacarry.proboards44.co...esinOklahoma&action=display&thread=1105215090

Here is a link to Oklahoma Carry. Not sure how often the list there is updated.

I had the opportunity to visit Oklahoma Farm Bureau- Tulsa County office recently. Posted in BIG letters 'NO FIREARMS'.

I've noticed several banks posted.




Pigeon

Is it just me or does that seem weird that a Farm Bureau wouldn't allow you to carry your sidearm in there? I mean, isn't that kinda what we're known for here in Oklahoma? According to the state statutes you can OPEN carry on a farm/ranch and it's perfectly legal. The Farm Bureau was established for farmers. I personally know a couple that open carry on their farm everyday and when they go into town they never remove their sidearm and no one cares.

 

[IDtheTarget]

the first time it is a trespass is what i understand, it's not clear in the law. there are no prescribed consequences that i have found. however, if the business place chose to, they can terminate employment for violating company policy, but there have not been state laws violated to my understanding.

Actually, that's incorrect. I'm verifying some stuff, but expect to have a post up on Monday. Bottom line:

It is a misdemeanor in the state of Oklahoma to carry a concealed firearm on any property where the owner has prohibited said practice. This misdemeanor is punishable by fine, jail time, and a 6-month suspension of your SDA license.

It's all in the statutes. I need to run some quotes past the person who made them and get the okay before I post, but that's the bottom line.

If a property is not posted, then you're fine until they ask you to leave. If the property is posted, you've broken the law by just stepping across the threshold.

 

[skyydiver]

I don't dispute this, but would like to know what the misdimeanor is called, be it trespass, or violating some section of the SDA or other act. And the appropriate citation / opinion and who made it. If this is an AG opinion, etc...it will be the first real clarity we've gotten. Thanks ID!

 

[Buzzdraw]

It is a misdemeanor in the state of Oklahoma to carry a concealed firearm on any property where the owner has prohibited said practice. This misdemeanor is punishable by fine, jail time, and a 6-month suspension of your SDA license.

ID the Target:

Your post quoted above. Carrying on posted property is a “sticky wicket” with widely varying penalties, depending upon the classification of said property.

The CLEET class curriculum does not mention anything regarding a 6 month suspension for the specific activity of simple misdemeanor trespass.

It is my understanding that simple trespass is a potential misdemeanor, which if it escalates to the point that law enforcement is called out, could be a citable offense. The cost of the citation can vary among jurisdictions, but something around $200 is typical. I am not aware that a simple trespass conviction will result in suspension of a SDA license and would like to know of the specific statute/rule that applies to this situation.

We must always remember that carrying a handgun, under a SDA license, into certain property,facilities or buildings can be very serious. Carry into places such as courthouses, jails, schools, governmental buildings, and too many others to list, can produce charges including felony level ones, with attendant severe penalties. SDA licensees can have their carry license revoked and have various $$ amount of administrative fines imposed (by OSBI), in addition to the other legal charges, for illegal carry under these statutes. In some cases, one can run afoul of Federal statutes.

Oklahoma does not have a “must sign to enforce” statute, nor does it have any statue to delineate official standards for posting of “no guns.” SDA carriers must always be aware of what the status is of any place in which they may carry their concealed handgun. We must always beware of where we carry!

 

[IDtheTarget]

It is a misdemeanor in the state of Oklahoma to carry a concealed firearm on any property where the owner has prohibited said practice. This misdemeanor is punishable by fine, jail time, and a 6-month suspension of your SDA license.

ID the Target:

Your post quoted above. Carrying on posted property is a “sticky wicket” with widely varying penalties, depending upon the classification of said property.

The CLEET class curriculum does not mention anything regarding a 6 month suspension for the specific activity of simple misdemeanor trespass.

It is my understanding that simple trespass is a potential misdemeanor, which if it escalates to the point that law enforcement is called out, could be a citable offense. The cost of the citation can vary among jurisdictions, but something around $200 is typical. I am not aware that a simple trespass conviction will result in suspension of a SDA license and would like to know of the specific statute/rule that applies to this situation.

We must always remember that carrying a handgun, under a SDA license, into certain property,facilities or buildings can be very serious. Carry into places such as courthouses, jails, schools, governmental buildings, and too many others to list, can produce charges including felony level ones, with attendant severe penalties. SDA licensees can have their carry license revoked and have various $$ amount of administrative fines imposed (by OSBI), in addition to the other legal charges, for illegal carry under these statutes. In some cases, one can run afoul of Federal statutes.

Oklahoma does not have a “must sign to enforce” statute, nor does it have any statue to delineate official standards for posting of “no guns.” SDA carriers must always be aware of what the status is of any place in which they may carry their concealed handgun. We must always beware of where we carry!

With regards to carrying on private property (not any of the other places specifically prohibited in the SDA) where the owner has prohibited concealed carry, it's not a simple trespass. Like I said, I need to run my post across the desk of the person with whom I spoke before I put it up here, but basically it is a violation of Title 21 Section 1272, which means that the penalties are outlined in Title 21 Section 1276.

I'll do my best to have it up on Monday, it depends upon another person's schedule.

 

[Buzzdraw]

I just concluded a discussion with CLEET’s staff attorney regarding a couple SDA matters, including trespass. Here is a synopsis of the conversation regarding trespass.

There are two degrees of trespass: simple and criminal. Simple trespass is defined as not causing harm or of an innocent nature. This includes going past an ordinary "no guns" sign, at a property whose entry into by SDA holders is not restricted by statute. It will not cause a SDA license to be revoked/suspended. Criminal trespass CAN cause suspension/loss of SDA license. It is of a greater degree of trespass, potentially causing harm/damage to the property being trespassed upon (i.e. destruction of property at the location, etc.)

He elaborated that if simple trespass progresses to the point that law enforcement is called out, the LE asks the SDA trespasser to leave, AND this lawful order is declined by the SDA licensee, THEN things could get sticky for the SDA licensee. The LE could, at that point, cite not only for simple trespass, but also for disobeying a lawful order of a police officer, in addition to whatever other statute-breaking items the officer may find, if he chooses to continue investigation.

The SDA licensee MUST know the law (and the legal status of property he may enter) to stay out of serious trouble.

A definative legal opinion for all of Oklahoma would be firmly established by an AG's opinion. These are sometimes necessary if the statutes are not clear or are possibly conflicting. I'm not advocating a request for an official opinion as necessary in this case.

 

[NikatKimber]

Actually, that's incorrect. I'm verifying some stuff, but expect to have a post up on Monday. Bottom line:

It is a misdemeanor in the state of Oklahoma to carry a concealed firearm on any property where the owner has prohibited said practice. This misdemeanor is punishable by fine, jail time, and a 6-month suspension of your SDA license.

It's all in the statutes. I need to run some quotes past the person who made them and get the okay before I post, but that's the bottom line.

If a property is not posted, then you're fine until they ask you to leave. If the property is posted, you've broken the law by just stepping across the threshold.

I've looked through the SDA several times, can't find it. can you tell me what section please?

/// nevermind, you did put it up, didnt' read far enough before responding.

 

[skyydiver]

After poring over 1272 again, I'm definitely not seeing it as clearly as you seem to ID. I am eager to see the opinion you've got coming on this to see where and how the connection between a property owner being able to regulate their property and a violation of 1272 is made.

 

[IDtheTarget]

Okay, it's been bugging me about what (if any) the penalties are for knowingly walking into an establishment that is posted as a no-carry zone, and there have been a lot of different opinions posted here on this subject. So, I spoke with a lawyer who's intimately familiar with this law. He prefers that I not use his or our agency's name since it's not our job to make or interpret the law. He agrees with Buzz about it being the AG's role to write a definitive opinion, but notes two things:
(1) He doubts the AG will do so, in order to leave the DA's the flexibility to charge on a case-by-case basis, and

(2) It won't really be decided until a court tries the case and applicable case law is established.

That being the case, the gentleman with whom I spoke disagrees with the CLEET staff attorney. I detailed the reasoning as best I could below:

Bottom Line Up Front (BLUF): It's a misdemeanor, and you lose your SDA license for 6 months plus fine and possibly jail time.

First of all, if there were no law on the subject, anybody could carry a concealed handgun anywhere they want. However, there is a law making concealed carry illegal, Title 21 Section 1272. Until it was ammended to allow carry for SDA holders, nobody but LEOs and licensed PIs were allowed concealed carry. Now it reads that it is:

unlawful for any person to carry upon or about his or her
person, or in a purse or other container belonging to the person, any
pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle whether loaded or unloaded or any
dagger, bowie knife, dirk knife, switchblade knife, spring-type knife,
sword cane, knife having a blade which opens automatically by hand
pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle of
the knife, blackjack, loaded cane, billy, hand chain, metal knuckles,
or any other offensive weapon, whether such weapon be concealed or
unconcealed, except this section shall not prohibit:

1. The proper use of guns and knives for hunting, fishing, educational
or recreational purposes;

2. The carrying or use of weapons in a manner otherwise permitted by
statute or authorized by the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, Section 1290.1
et seq. of this title; or

3. The carrying, possession and use of any weapon by a peace officer
in the performance of official duties and in compliance with the rules
of the employing agency. Any person convicted of violating the
foregoing provision shall be guilty of a misdemeanor punishable as
provided in Section 1276 of this title.

So, unless you are carrying under the auspices of the SDA, the average person can't carry concealed.

Now, Title 21 Section 1290.4 states:

As provided by Section 1272 of Title 21 of the Oklahoma Statutes, it
is unlawful for any person to carry a concealed handgun in this state,
except as hereby authorized by the provisions of the Oklahoma
Self-Defense Act, Sections 1 through 25 of this act, or as may
otherwise be provided by law.

So, if you are carrying in a way that is contrary to the SDA, you are not protected by the SDA, and therefore fall under Section 1272. Now, Title 21 Section 1290.22A states that a business owner (or any other property owner) can disallow weapons on his or her property. If said owner disallows weapons, then anybody carrying on his/her property is not protected by the SDA, and are therefore violating Title 21 Section 1272.

Now, the penalties for violating sections 1272 and 1273 are spelled out in Title 21 Section 1276:

PENALTY FOR 1272 AND 1273

Any person violating the provisions of Section 1272 or 1273 shall,
upon a first conviction, be adjudged guilty of a misdemeanor and the
party offending shall be punished by a fine of not less than One
Hundred Dollars ($100.00) nor more than Two Hundred Fifty Dollars
($250.00), or by imprisonment in the county jail for a period not to
exceed thirty (30) days or both such fine and imprisonment. On the
second and every subsequent violation, the party offending shall, upon
conviction, be punished by a fine of not less than Two Hundred Fifty
Dollars ($250.00) nor more than Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), or by
imprisonment in the county jail for a period not less than thirty (30)
days nor more than three (3) months, or by both such fine and
imprisonment.

Any person convicted of violating the provisions of Section 1272 or
1273 after having been issued a concealed handgun license pursuant to
the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, Sections 1 through 25
of this act, shall have the license suspended for a period of six (6)
months and shall be liable for an administrative fine of Fifty Dollars
($50.00) upon a hearing and determination by the Oklahoma State Bureau
of Investigation that the person is in violation of the provisions of
this section.

Notice that the SDA is specifically mentioned in the revised Section 1276. I personally believe that this was not an accident, it was intentional so that people would know that it applies in this specific case.

So, if you are caught in a store/establishment that has a "no guns" sign posted, you can be fined, jailed, have your SDA suspended for six months, and have a misdemeanor on your record. Notice that there's nothing in the law that says that the owner has to ask you to leave, first.

I haven't tried to talk with the OKC DA, this guy's opinion is good for me. If anybody else feels the need to ask whoever the DA is a week from Wednesday, then let us know what he says. But I'm willing to bet a nice lunch that he says basically the same thing, if he voices an opinion at all.

Hope this helps!

 

[Buzzdraw]

When two lawyers disagree in what a law reads, it's called a lawsuit. Seriously, both probably think they are correct, but case law (yes, it's established by trying an issue in court) is much more definative.

At this point, an individual must choose the interpretation they think is correct and go on about their business of taking care of themselves and certain others.