Question about ar15 trigger and springs..

[MoBoost]

I have some people telling that the jp springs are just as good as buying a high end trigger group.

To the OP's question: I know it sounds insulting that a $10 spring kit is "as good as" high end trigger - but for most shooters it is true. $200 will get a you a lot of range time and ammo.

Anybody can tell the difference between heavy and light trigger - and the springs will give you a lighter trigger. AR-15 starts with a really really good trigger by design, and it takes a lot of trigger time to tell the minute (important none the less) differences you get with high end triggers.

 

[uncle money bags]

MoBoost makes an excellent point.

 

[tRidiot]

We run into the same argument with high-end handguns... 1911s, say. You can get an excellent 1911 from Rock Island for around the $600 mark, a somewhat better one for a few hundred more from Springfield, Sig or Para, or you can get a very high-end, nicely-appointed and -finished one from Les Baer or Wilson for somewhere between $1200-1800. Or step on up to the the $3000 match custom jobs from Nighthawk or Dan Brown, etc.

The cheap $10-20 spring job with a little bit of polishing done at home will make a nice difference in feel from the stock AR trigger, but to reach that pinnacle of admittedly-diminishing returns in a drop in will cost you a couple of hundred from Geissele or POF.

It's about whether you want "good enough," "better," or "the best bar none."

 

[Glocktogo]

To the OP's question: I know it sounds insulting that a $10 spring kit is "as good as" high end trigger - but for most shooters it is true. $200 will get a you a lot of range time and ammo.

Anybody can tell the difference between heavy and light trigger - and the springs will give you a lighter trigger. AR-15 starts with a really really good trigger by design, and it takes a lot of trigger time to tell the minute (important none the less) differences you get with high end triggers.

Man I hate to disagree with you, but I take some issue with that assertion. The mil-spec AR trigger was designed and intended to be bomb proof and provide a significant level of inherent safety for what is sadly, a poorly trained recruit headed for Vietnam. Precision marksmanship for the entire military was not feasible and they were downsizing the service round to carry a LOT more. The hit ratio in Vietnam was appalling. A mil-spec AR trigger will run somewhere between 7-12 pounds on a 7.5 pound rifle. It's quite possible to get amazing accuracy with a stock AR trigger, but it takes more time than most shooters are willing to spend breaking each shot. Frankly, most AR shooters rarely shoot past 25 yards, which requires almost no marksmanship skills. At 25 yards, those holes in the target should be covered with a dime. Most are covering a pie plate, liberally.

Sadly, at nearly .75-1.00 per round, $200 doesn't buy you very much marksmanship training. I doubt even an excellent shooting coach could instill marksmanship in the average shooter in just 250 rounds. IIRC, the full Appleseed course is about 500 rounds. Look at a quality trigger as a percentage of group size. Uneven pressure applied at the trigger and lock time of the ignition system will increase group size at 100 yards by a percentage of the platform's mechanical accuracy. That percentage is going to be increased or decreased by a factor time and inch pounds. David Tubb has sold a metric ton of adjustable triggers and ignition upgrades as a result.

For a practical shooter like me, the factor is less about MOA and more about time. I can win a match by applying a mixture of speed and accuracy. How much speed and how much accuracy is dependent on stage design and range to target, along with penalties and points. What I can't do is miss fast enough to win. A better trigger allows me to get acceptable hits faster. I can hit a 300 yard gong with a Mosin Ngant, but you'd better get the sun dial out to time it.

FWIW, I think the best bang for the buck is a .22LR conversion and a few bricks of ammo. Past that, a quality trigger does a lot for most shooters. JMO, YMMV

 

[uncle money bags]

To the OP's question: I know it sounds insulting that a $10 spring kit is "as good as" high end trigger - but for most shooters it is true. $200 will get a you a lot of range time and ammo.

Anybody can tell the difference between heavy and light trigger - and the springs will give you a lighter trigger. AR-15 starts with a really really good trigger by design, and it takes a lot of trigger time to tell the minute (important none the less) differences you get with high end triggers.

Man I hate to disagree with you, but I take some issue with that assertion. The mil-spec AR trigger was designed and intended to be bomb proof and provide a significant level of inherent safety for what is sadly, a poorly trained recruit headed for Vietnam. Precision marksmanship for the entire military was not feasible and they were downsizing the service round to carry a LOT more. The hit ratio in Vietnam was appalling. A mil-spec AR trigger will run somewhere between 7-12 pounds on a 7.5 pound rifle. It's quite possible to get amazing accuracy with a stock AR trigger, but it takes more time than most shooters are willing to spend breaking each shot. Frankly, most AR shooters rarely shoot past 25 yards, which requires almost no marksmanship skills. At 25 yards, those holes in the target should be covered with a dime. Most are covering a pie plate, liberally.

Sadly, at nearly .75-1.00 per round, $200 doesn't buy you very much marksmanship training. I doubt even an excellent shooting coach could instill marksmanship in the average shooter in just 250 rounds. IIRC, the full Appleseed course is about 500 rounds. Look at a quality trigger as a percentage of group size. Uneven pressure applied at the trigger and lock time of the ignition system will increase group size at 100 yards by a percentage of the platform's mechanical accuracy. That percentage is going to be increased or decreased by a factor time and inch pounds. David Tubb has sold a metric ton of adjustable triggers and ignition upgrades as a result.

For a practical shooter like me, the factor is less about MOA and more about time. I can win a match by applying a mixture of speed and accuracy. How much speed and how much accuracy is dependent on stage design and range to target, along with penalties and points. What I can't do is miss fast enough to win. A better trigger allows me to get acceptable hits faster. I can hit a 300 yard gong with a Mosin Ngant, but you'd better get the sun dial out to time it.

FWIW, I think the best bang for the buck is a .22LR conversion and a few bricks of ammo. Past that, a quality trigger does a lot for most shooters. JMO, YMMV

I dont think either opinion is as far "off" from each other as you think GtG. being able to tell the difference between trigger pull and being able to translate that into good shot placement is not a mutually inclusive skill in my experience. It seems to me novice shooters with a good trigger and lack of time behind the gun make the same mistakes as a novice with a stock FCG because they dont know how to use the mechanics of a high end trigger to their advantage.
Also, could I get a show of hands by those AR shooters who rarely shoot past 25 yards?
I assume you meant other than on purpose CQB training.

Either way, I think Mo's point was without sufficient correct training the shooter doesnt know what he doesnt know.

 

[MoBoost]

Man I hate to disagree with you ... A mil-spec AR trigger will run somewhere between 7-12 pounds on a 7.5 pound rifle.

If we are talking trigger weight : $10 or $200 later - 3.5lb trigger is still 3.5lb trigger. The reset, overtravel, two-stage stop/break, travel angle - all are acquired/learned nice-to-havities and are subjective (unlike trigger weight that can be measured with a gauge); the said subjectivity is why there are so many different triggers on the market, even from the same manufacturer.

Sadly, at nearly .75-1.00 per round, $200 doesn't buy you very much marksmanship training. I doubt even an excellent shooting coach could instill marksmanship in the average shooter in just 250 rounds. Look at a quality trigger as a percentage of group size. Uneven pressure applied at the trigger and lock time of the ignition system will increase group size at 100 yards by a percentage of the platform's mechanical accuracy.

250 rounds will instill some marksmanship; better trigger will do NONE - it will mask the errors to a degree, but I find it counterproductive.

FWIW, I think the best bang for the buck is a .22LR conversion and a few bricks of ammo. Past that, a quality trigger does a lot for most shooters. JMO, YMMV

Can't argue there ... except I've been reloading 223 for the price of 22LR lately

 

[Glocktogo]

I dont think either opinion is as far "off" from each other as you think GtG. being able to tell the difference between trigger pull and being able to translate that into good shot placement is not a mutually inclusive skill in my experience. It seems to me novice shooters with a good trigger and lack of time behind the gun make the same mistakes as a novice with a stock FCG because they dont know how to use the mechanics of a high end trigger to their advantage.
Also, could I get a show of hands by those AR shooters who rarely shoot past 25 yards?
I assume you meant other than on purpose CQB training.

Either way, I think Mo's point was without sufficient correct training the shooter doesnt know what he doesnt know.

On second thought, you're probably right. A crappy trigger magnifies mistakes. In order to wring good accuracy out of it, you have to perfect your form. That's why most racers don't start on a powerful, high end car. A great car masks the driver's flaws. The same argument could be made with a great trigger.

Carry on!

 

[MoBoost]

Here is how "check this trigger out" goes:
Safety check, hand over the rifle, give it a shake, point in safe direction and send bolt forward, shoulder the rifle and aim at imaginary target, squeeeeeeze, click, hand it back over - "man, that trigger is effing AWESOME!!!!"

Unfortunately that tells you only 1/2 of the story and $10 and 10 minutes makes them all pretty much equal.

This is how I "check out" triggers: after initial squeeeeeeze, keep it squeezed, rack it again, release slowly and slap it again, repeat couple of time. That's where your money goes - reset, travel, angles. You rarely see people go through full motion - which tells me that people just don't care.

 

[ASP785]

...which tells me that people just don't care.

I think it tells you people just don't know.

 

[93 FOX]

I've had 4 trigger jobs from Bill (triggerworks) and all of them have been great. $55 and a nice crisp 3 1/2 pound trigger.